micro -100nl and any LIVE poker hand

200nl-1knl

I think the last time we split up forums most 200nl players were a joke compared to midstakes regs, while that still true its much less true.

Deanglow- There is NO chance that a live forum will be created. ZERO. It has been talked about here. It has been talked about in ATF. It has been talked about in the MOD forum. As of now, the men in charge don't feel it is the right move for them. So, we are forced to get along....lets make the best of it

Foldndark- I'm happy you're happy. I do want to say though that many of the long time regs on these boards are well familiar with the online vs live debate and the different nuances within them. most of the beef live threads get are not for this lack of understanding, but rather for the simplistic nature and approach live players take to the game. It is important to remember that this the High stakes-FR forum and discussion should be focused on advanced concepts and such.

Granted, sometimes a more remedial post will make its way in (both live and online) and this is where I have asked all to show some respect, remember where you came from, and act accordingly to the post by either helping the poster so he won't continue to make such "mundane" posts, or to ignore it and let it pass off the page. there will be no more live vs online wars. We all understand there are differences and we all have personal views on how each is played. The biases each carry should be kept to themselves.

dankness- I can assure you that you are not alone in your opinion. I am doing my best to get good strategy discussion back in this forum (was there ever any?). Like I said, it will not happen over night but when word gets out that civil discussion is taking place here people will come, I promise. For now, please be patient, be courteous, and participate what you can. Each poster contributing is very important to get the ball rolling. Everyone's gotta do there part...

Sorry if I missed it but how exactly do you speak good strategy discussion here when it's already be seen for a long time that live questions are subpar? Just because threads are civil doesn't necessarily mean good discussion takes place. Call me negative nancy, but there's a reason that most live players are live players and it's not because of the free drinks. I'm not sure if you're an online player but the MSNL FR games are cutthroat and rarely does anyone come out on top over a decent amount of hands as a non reg.

RobSainter has spoken

Agree with Pettey. Most of the live hands posted in this forum are virtually impossible not to flame adn they would get the best responses in the SS forum. The situations presented are often of the lowest level of thinking.

Plus a majority of the people that post here don't even read the strat threads.

I just think you're goign to have a hard time getting a high level of input for free. If you want more quantity that is fine too, it is just going to cause most people to not open the strat threads imo. I read almost all of them and most are instant facepalm.jpg.

Jason- After some discussion about a live forum, they decided it was not in the best interest of the site. They did try to revamp where to post live hands moving forward to help contain them and put them where they believed their relative skill was based so as to keep the discussion within the thread on par with the overall discussion of the forum.

I decided that I would allow 5/10 hands and up in this forum (and the occasional lower one if it warranted good discussion) since we are sorely lacking strategy discussion. I have edited the sticky to reflect that. If you would like to post any live stakes hand in the SSNL or uNL forum, please be my guest as they are welcome with open arms and thoughtful contributors. The mods within those forms do a great job in keeping the integrity of these posts intact. I just offer this forum as another place you will be able to post them.

As for wanting to move the hands to another forum, well there are threads on our front page from a week and a half ago so it's not like we are pushing valuable threads off the front page in order to appease live threads. If the day ever comes where this forum gets bogged down with mundane threads while valuable threads keep getting buried, I will address the fact immediately, I promise.

OMGitscheddar- The MSNL forum and community is great and I encourage you to participate in there more as well (just don't forget about us here). It is one of the busiest forums on the site however and often times your posts can fly off the front pages quickly. There are still plenty of quality posters in that forum to get feedback from.

As for people only looking to take and not give, well that is just a fact of life. I will do my best to encourage new posters as well as older ones who take on a selfish attitude as this to post more in other threads as well since writing down ones thoughts on a hand and participating in discussion can do wonders for ones own game. It is part of the reason my responses to threads tend to be a little long. I learn from myself as well as allow others to debate the many points I try to bring up so that I can learn from them. And around and around we go...

I'm happy you understand where this green guy is coming from and thank you for understanding. I noticed you took a softer approach in another thread where you explicitly said you trying to be more respectful. Don't think that goes unnoticed. I see everything

hurt- As mentioned the live forum possibility is not an option at this time. I'm sorry to disappoint. As for wanting 200NL in this forum, I was under the impression that the forum members wanted to attempt to keep the discussion at a higher level. Bringing in 200NL posts will only simplify discussion, not advance it. The reason for this has nothing to do with the skill level of many of the people playing at that level. It has to do with it applicability of advanced concepts. The best way to beat that level is often just an ABC game with a few tricks and this type of discussion is debated at lengths in the SSNL forum (rightly so).

If the masses feel I am wrong with this and wish to add lower limit play into this forum, I will absolutely address the issue and make the proper changes. But it seems that it goes against the very philosophy of "high stakes".

Vanguard- The chances of a forums existence for the sole reason being for chat threads is exactly 0%. I am more than happy to have a couple in here (we have 4).

qft. just look at highstakes pl/nl. the only posts good regs will (and should) post are wells/prop bets/regs thread stuff. if you want good online content for 400nl-1knl hands, you should probably expand the subforum to include 200nl and maybe 100nl players who are much more willing to post strategy. i definitely see plenty of good midstakes posters go down to small stakes fr.

More strategy would be good, there are a couple issues though:

1) If you post a hand with another regular and state all your reads on him, that regular isn't going to be happy you outed a bunch of his tendencies

2) So many of the people we play with would see the board and have a better idea of how we play

3) The answers you currently get to strat questions aren't in depth enough to make it worth posting

Jumanji- There are many reasons people choose to play live over online. Not all of them "can't cut it online". Each person has there own motives for why they play and surprisingly (to some), money is not the sole or even main purpose. I agree that the online FR games have gotten increasingly tougher to beat. I applaud our ability to do so.

If live threads don't meet your criteria for advanced concept discussion and critical analyzation then I encourage you to not participate in such threads. I hope y setting a standard with quality online threads and the few live threads that produce meaningful discussion will set the tone for the kind of threads we as a community expect and when someone is debating whether or not to post a thread here they will see how their inquiries stack up to those of others and the level of discussion taking place.

As I did with metski 5/5 post, I will allow the post to stay and let it be known that this community expects people to learn from the members and take proactive steps in their improvement of the game and handle of the fundamentals and concepts. Posters will quickly understand that this may or may not be the right forum to post in when their threads get ignored. They will take their queries to a smaller stake forum. This will happen. But it will only happen if people refrain from leveling because any feedback given, serious or not, just bumps the thread to the top and gives the poster attention that is not warranted or encouraged.

Jimmy- I hope you will be able to refrain from levels even if they seem warranted. I'm telling you that this format of ignoring the bad threads works and will help clean this forum up. I will do my best to let posters who post remedial threads know that the SSNL forum (or some other) may be a better location for their posts to get more detailed feedback.

As for getting a high level of input for free....I completely agree and that is the issue with 2+2 as an overall site as well. It is not a problem relegated to this forum. Since the UIGEA, many sites have been taken away from us and in doing so has made the player pool tougher by 1000% from its heyday. The invention of coaching sites has also deterred posters from offering advice as now they justify it as a money tool (and in some cases they may be right).

As said numerous times, I wholeheartedly respect anyones decision not to participate in strategy talk. I completely understand if you feel such discusiion would be detrimental to your game. I only ask that you stay out of the discussion completely if that is your stance. Just because you don't want to engage in such acts does not mean others must follow in your path. The purpose of this sub-forum is explicitly to talk strategy. The chat threads became a byproduct of a community coming together and befriending each other on some level. So please don't forget why the forum exists in the first place. I do encourage the community to stay intact and use the chat threads to bullshyt as they please. Again though, I only ask you stay out of the strategy threads if you don't wish to be constructive within them.

Rampage- I tend to agree with you and have always thought that naming your opponent was a bad idea for countless reasons, many of which are ethical and many of which are conventional. You allow that person to learn how others think about him/her. They become unhappy that you break his/her game down in a public forum. You educate others on how to play against said opponent. Etc. Bad for business all around.

I always thought a detailed description of how you depict your opponent to be was a MUCH better way to go about it. If you look at some of my threads I started (granted most are live but a few are online), you will see I try to give a few sentences about each player (including myself) to be able to set the tone for others to properly comment on. People have to remember that poker is not static and that just because you may have notes on a player, at the time of the hand in question, he may be acting or playing differently from his norm. These are adjustments that need to be made and removing the rote that infiltrates many peoples game.

As for getting good strategy moving forward....it will never be like the good ol days for reasons stated (UIGEA, coaching sites, competitiveness, etc..). We have to learn to accept that. This does not mean we can't hold higher level discussion on some occasions. Some threads just bring it out. Just don't expect it to permeate throughout each thread as that is just an unrealistic goal. Be thankful when a thread pops up that elicits such discussion. Don't harp on the countless "boring" threads. View the glass half full and be thankful for what you get. If you keep expectations low and an open mind, you will be pleasantly surprised and what you get.

This isn't live poker though where you play so many different opponets. We play the same regulars EVERY SINGLE DAY. If someone posted a hand about me without saying my name, I'd be smart enough to notice that it's me they speak of. Then I'm getting free info about myself. I still see no reason to post here any strategy, and like everyone else would rather ask friends.

Then please continue to go about what you think is best for you. I respect your stance.

I think your best bet wrt getting strategy going is to offer some sort of "carrot" to the dozens of coaches out there. Not sure if 2+2 cares enough about getting strategy going to give free/discounted advertising, or whatever.

DFly like a true parent (are you even a parent?) offering treats to better things.

Not since we were forced to pay for our Coaching thread. 2+2 did a complete reversal on that one. The almighty $$ took care of that.

As far as the Strategy postings go, most of the strat discussions these days go along the lines of:

OP: I do x in this spot, good or bad?
Random Reply 1 : Thats ****ing horrible
OP: WHY?
Random Reply 1: Because I said so and anyone who doesn't think so is an as*
OP: Well thx for the helpful contribution, moron
Randon Reply 2: Forgot him OP your line is fantastic, 4 betting and then folding 39% of your stack preflop with AQs is the right play don't anyone tell you otherwise, nice play
Op Thanks, I thought so
Random Person #2: Your welcome, whats your Screen name?
Random Person #3 (Inserts hot woman pics here)


Thats the reason I stopped posting strat.


The 2+2 gold mine strat disucssions of 6 years ago is gone, There's the odd useful nugget here and there but you have to shovel thruru 20 tons of **** to find them. It's kinda sad because 2 +2 is where I learned to play.

You will be hard pressed to improve the current state of the strat discussion while bs like above goes on, thats because 2+2 has gotten so large. 6-7 years ago it was much smaller and the community was much friendlier and more inclined to help people learn how to play poker.