Pretty much this combined with the fact that the player pools are just much smaller and people don't want to give a ton away in public. MSNL 6m gets a decent amount of traffic for online hands and a lot of ssfr FR posters are people who a lot of us know/have talked with since a long time ago so people post there knowing the people that give advice and knowing the people they can ignore. I honestly don't even think it's that much of a problem, especially given that when 400nl+ FR runs it doesn't play that much different from 6m.

yeah, i definitely don't think it's a "problem" for online guys. as i said, i know where to post if i wanted answers (although have skype group and friends for it, usually). it just seems like if there were dual small stakes live and high stakes live hands, that would be a lot cleaner/more appropriate.

not really a huge deal since people can probably figure this out for themselves, but something to think about for the noobs.

I think I'm a bit confused then. Is all you're asking is to rename the forums? I guess we can do that if possible but I'm not sure that that accomplishes since I don't rarely/don't ever see 400NL+ hands posted anywhere on the forums. If those who play those stakes choose to post in SSFR over MHFR than they are more then happy to do so and I'm sure the mods in that forum would welcome those posts.

I just want to let posters know that those hands are welcome here as well. We can all learn from those who play in full-ring online games and I just hate to "officially" weed them out or send them elsewhere. I do understand that accurate labels to the sub forums helps the new posters know which community to post in and where they may be most welcome. I just don't want to alienate them from this forum if they happen to either play both online and live (and thus can find a connection here) or even if they value the advice from some in this community and wish to participate in hopes of creating constructive dialogue from the many proficient players that reside here.

My goal for this forum has always been to create an environment where quality strategy discussion can take place at an increasingly higher level. This has been coming to fruition over the past few years yet we still have a bit to go (we will always have a bit to go...). To remove a block of players who can positively affect the way we think about the game, as well as offer a perspective that may be foreign to many here (namely, more game theoretical analysis, the ability to process hundreds of hands an hour, slightly different bankroll management, the art of table selection, etc..) is only a detriment to this forums ability to grow stronger and more well rounded.

This is all just my opinion and I value yours and others who participate in this community, so if I am off base or you see greater value in redesigning the forum setup then I will be more then happy to take up this issue with Mat and try and reorganize the strategy forums for optimal use.

vini's right but I like it the way it is now. Basically agree with jloc's logic. Midstakes online hands do get posted here from time to time and changing anything would discourage that.

im not asking for any action one way or the other. i think the forums would be improved in the long term if MSFR became HS live, and HSNL became only nosebleeds live and HS online, but it doesn't look like there are too many people who have a strong feeling one way or the other.

i was just posting to generate discussion. i don't really have a vested interest (as i know where to look to get content). i was mostly curious if other people had the same observation as me or if people felt the same way and just hadn't mentioned it publicly.

I think that the mid- and high-stakes forums will continue to decline not because there's a lack of interest in strat discussion, but rather because the learning curve has been continually shifting and the types of discussion that players used to participate in while playing 2/4 is now being done when they play 25c/50c (which used to be the entry level game on Party).

Hope I don't come off as a hater, but shouldn't everything smaller than 5-10 be posted somewhere else? There's a lot of 2-5 and 3-5 lately. Thx.

Not a hater. Those stakes hands belong in LLNL barring a few exceptions. I'm sorry I haven't been more dilligent in keeping this forums order. I'll be better about it moving forward.

Id like to be clear here: No one is allowed to be rude or disrespectful in this forum. That goes for old school posters, newbies, posters held in high regard, or otherwise. The transformation of this forum and its subsequent quality of content is a direct result of our ability to hold mature conversation while debating theoretical analysis using incomplete information.

Often times, dialogue can get heated as disputes arise as to the best way to approach, handle, or react to a given situation. This friction is what causes good discussion and ever excelling thought on the matters at hand. We should all strive to evolve in our critical thinking of this game and it is directly correlated to the impass of perspective. Quelling this because of disagreement with another poster is counter intuitive to why we are here to begin with while resorting to name calling, trolling, or just incendiary remarks does nothing but stifle the very dialogue we should strive to achieve.

This post is being made because of the recent back n forth between bigoiltrader and parrydawg and the fallout because of it. One person attacked a post (though admittedly not with the utmost grace) while the other attacked the poster. While I tried to rectify the situation by deleting the post and using PM to quell the situation, it seems that wasn't suitable enough as I have been called out in the tactics that I used.

So for everyone to see how I treat these often unnoticed situations, I will highlite this incident as an example of what isn't acceptable and how I try to go about solving the dispute and reforming people's way of approaching this forum. If my way isn't suitable enough or you think I overstep my bounds, then you are more then happy to post elsewhere as those type of contributions do nothing but take away from the pleasant nature and attitude this forum holds.

Below is an exchange had, unedited:

This is a bad attitude to have as a professional poker player imo. You should always be looking for the most +ev line and I think it's pretty ridiculous that you're telling people that they shouldn't. If you have tilt issues yourself and feel that playing tighter will be more +ev for you in the long wrong then by all means go for it, but don't extend that to everyone else's game and just assume they're going to tilt every time they lose in thin spots or have to make a lot of tough decisions. Personally i thrive on taking thin lines; it makes poker more fun and interesting for me. I think you should be much less concerned about whether or not you're going to tilt as a factor of how many hands you play; it's only going to serve to distract you and have you second-guessing yourself. Imo from what you've said here it seems clear that you just need to fix your tilt issues and try to find a way to focus 100% while you're playing a session. And by focus I mean paying your A game and constantly looking for thin spots and any edge you can get. In the long run it will make you a ton more money and it will get you to think about the game in a much more logical and profitable way.

The deleted rebuttal(s):

You're a complete fuqing idiot and totally missed my point.

And nobody has anything close to perfect steam control. Maybe because you play LAG in your soft 5-5 game, you think you can come on 2+2 like a total newbie and wave your little djck around without a clue.

Risking $2,000 for +$10 EV is just stupid unless you're setting up an image or trying to have some fun. You kids are so focused on omg "+EV!!!!!!!" that you really don't have a fuqing clue. Any fuqtard can pot mash any random hand, bluff total air for stacks, and have it be "+EV." Does it mean you should randomly pick one hand every hour to go apesht for your whole stack? Let's double or triple our volatility every session because we have PERFECT steam control and don't mind losing 10 buy-ins just to extract an extra ONE-HALF OF ONE BIG BLIND PER HOUR! That's real fuqing smart... Yippee kayay, mother fuqers!!!

Followed by:

You're a complete idiot and entirely missed my point.

To question why one was allowed while the other was deleted should seem fairly obvious but to some, maybe not I guess. While I would normally never call someone out like this I will add my PM after I deleted the posts.

Please stop being so rude in your posts (as you have been increasingly harsh/rude as of late). If you disagree with a post/poster then by all means refute it, but consistently calling people fuqtards and the like is not permitted in this subforum.

I have worked hard to try and generate quality discussion without there being disrespectful discourse. I hope you can appreciate the environment we have in MHFR and can respect my one very simple rule of keeping the dialogue civil.

Thank you.

Followed by:

No, you can't call someone an idiot. He didn't call you any names, he attacked your post/argument. If you'd like to rebutt his argument against your stance then please, by all means go ahead...as long as it is done without name calling. Confront him as though you are face to face. Your tone and manner would be much more civil, I guarantee.

As for you contributing quality posts this past couple weeks, I agree and I thank you sincerely for your contributions. But that doesn't give you the right to be rude or disrespectful when others don't agree, or when someone refutes one of your posts. There are many quality contributors, none of which get special treatment. The success of this forums sustainability is based on civil discourse and respect. If you don't believe me, go browse any thread in this forum before 2010 (when I became mod) and tell me if you prefer that environment. Hell, just go look at MSNL or HSNL and see how productive strategy threads can be.

I do hope you continue to participate here (if I recall, I PM'd you months ago to let you know about MHFR and invited you to join our community), but please know that respect trumps all in this forum. It is why we are able to carry on conversation and consistently improve the quality of content. When you are not being rude, you help grow this community and I hope it continues.

Take care.

So when I reopen the thread and see that I am being called with:

I've spent a great deal of time trying to make meaningful contributions this week. These posts are unappreciated by some and apparently solicit unwarranted attacks (kids with egos behind a computer screen, so no surprise really). We're grown men (or should be), so an occasional abrasive post with a few naughty words here and there shouldn't be a big deal. We all (hopefully) have better things to do than spend any significant amount of time trying to create a clean, civil, and analytical rebuttle to random attacks from some total newbie (I'm not name-calling, that's 2+2's word for him) who likes to gloat about himself. If we're not free to express ourselves appropriately when faced with adversity, then I guess we'll spend less time on potentially meaningful posts because someone upstairs might just delete them.

And this:

Anyway, just forget it. You win. I don't care much for this 2+2 crap when moderators delete my posts.

You can see why I may be slightly agitated.

If you think I am too stringent in my moderation you are more then welcome to call me on it, here, in the discussion thread or via PM, but rude posts will continue to get deleted like those posted. Loosening up this restriction wil open up the floodgates for more of the same, guaranteed. And that is not the direction I'd like this forum to pursue, sorry.

With all that said, 95% of the time the dialogue in MHFR is pleasant and I sincerely thank you all for the effort in making that be. It makes reading this forum a joy as well as a learning experience and all of your time and contributions are very much appreciated.

I rarely post hands (as is evident from my post count), but the last few I've posted have been in this forum rather than LLNL, despite the fact that I am primarily a live 2/5 player.

My local plays almost 50:50 2/5 and 2/5/10, and average stacks of $2000+ are the rule not the exception. In addition, a handful of the regulars are successful pros. I find this forum to be more appropriate for the stakes and level of play I encounter. I hope these types of factors will be taken into consideration when determining which posts to allow, rather than just nuking any thread that mentions 2/5 live.

There are a couple factors that typically go into my decision to either keep a post in MHFR or moving it to LLNL when the stakes are lower then 5/10 (and in some cases not even lower):

1) Does the hand in question have actual difficult/interesting decisions, or is it a case of someone losing and wanting to see if they could do anything not to lose? When being results oriented is the key aspect, LLNL is a better suited place for the hand (and often the poster) as they have more to learn before entering or soliciting discussion from players who have gotten past thinking and viewing hands in that manner.

2) Does the poster regularly contribute to this forum. The less they participate, the less likely they are to get any/many quality responses and thus their inquiries go unanswered and the thread to waste. Moving it to LLNL will usually garner a bit more attention in those cases.

As an add on to both of the above points: I also find if the poster doesn't really contribute to other threads besides their own they will get minimal advice as well (barring the hand posted is really interesting). People like to take time and answer questions for those that reciprocate their time and knowledge. If you use these boards for primarily selfish reasons (understandable), then don't expect to get as much out of them. You get what you give.

As well, even if the hand isn't based around results oriented thinking but just simple queries, the community has no time for it. MHFR goal is to hold increasingly advanced discussion on concepts and theory. When basic questions are being asked it usually lowers the bar for these debates to take place and stifles our ability as a community to grow. In this case, even 5/10 hands are vulnerable to being moved.

Avg stack is 400 bbs+? Holy cow.

Also- v nice post jlocdog.

Just a reminder that if you decide to post a hand in this forum, please do not post results right away. It stifles debate and ultimately helps no one. Let the thread evolve and inquire within it if you don't agree or understand what another poster has commented on.

And again, for best results from this community, put some effort into your posts, participate in more than just your threads, engage posters if you disagree or would like them to expound on their thought process, and keep a positive/constructive tone. In every other forum you can get the 'too cool for school, tough guy know it all internet persona'...it's refreshing to be free of that here and converse like adults.

Happy new year MHFR!