Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-08-2010, 11:53 PM   #26
Adam27X
veteran
 
Adam27X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York/New Jersey border
Posts: 2,083
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGitsCheddar View Post
DC has a small/mid/high forum, and then one FR forum for all stakes.
I don't know if you are or aren't advocating that we should do the same here (I would be pretty surprised if you were) but I, and I think most of us, would really dislike that set-up.

As for the rest of what you said: You make a ton of excellent points and I couldn't agree more.
Adam27X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 12:04 AM   #27
hurt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
hurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,148
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

2NL-100NL FR
200NL+ FR
Live FR
hurt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 01:49 AM   #28
Vanguard
banned
 
Vanguard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: the fail is strong with me.
Posts: 2,599
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurt View Post
2NL-100NL FR
200NL+ FR
Live FR
i think this would be a great idea honestly. however it seems to me that the purpose of the existence of this forum is the chat thread really. so if we did this then i would say you should maintain separate chat threads. one being the old mid/high chat thread and one being the old ssfr thread. chat thread, reg thread whatever the hell you want to call it.
Vanguard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 06:34 AM   #29
jasons0147
Pooh-Bah
 
jasons0147's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: What goods a TV if u live in a box.
Posts: 4,599
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasons0147 View Post
I thought the current rule was that all live hands up to 2/5 were posted in uNL FR and 5/10 live hands were in SSNL FR? Doesnt that mean that we should only see live hands above 5/10 being posted in this forum?

edit: If im correct then there are currently three threads (thats just on the first page) that arent suppose to exist in this forum
Make that 5 threads now (5 and a half if u include the "400NL online" thread). I know there is a report post button but there is a 60 second delay and I dont feel like wasting 5 minutes to report them all. You also mention that your going to welcome Live threads with open arms (im pretty sure it was you that said that, correct me if im wrong). It looks like the only live threads we should see here are 10/20+.
jasons0147 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 10:51 AM   #30
TucoRamirez
veteran
 
TucoRamirez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: gslp 4life
Posts: 2,355
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurt View Post
2NL-100NL FR
200NL+ FR
Live FR
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
i think this would be a great idea honestly. however it seems to me that the purpose of the existence of this forum is the chat thread really. so if we did this then i would say you should maintain separate chat threads. one being the old mid/high chat thread and one being the old ssfr thread. chat thread, reg thread whatever the hell you want to call it.
and this.
TucoRamirez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 12:55 PM   #31
newschool2
banned
 
newschool2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Not important: Text wall response
Posts: 5,293
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

micro -100nl and any LIVE poker hand

200nl-1knl

I think the last time we split up forums most 200nl players were a joke compared to midstakes regs, while that still true its much less true.
newschool2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 01:07 PM   #32
jlocdog
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lake Tahoe/NYC
Posts: 5,368
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Deanglow- There is NO chance that a live forum will be created. ZERO. It has been talked about here. It has been talked about in ATF. It has been talked about in the MOD forum. As of now, the men in charge don't feel it is the right move for them. So, we are forced to get along....lets make the best of it

Foldndark- I'm happy you're happy. I do want to say though that many of the long time regs on these boards are well familiar with the online vs live debate and the different nuances within them. most of the beef live threads get are not for this lack of understanding, but rather for the simplistic nature and approach live players take to the game. It is important to remember that this the High stakes-FR forum and discussion should be focused on advanced concepts and such.

Granted, sometimes a more remedial post will make its way in (both live and online) and this is where I have asked all to show some respect, remember where you came from, and act accordingly to the post by either helping the poster so he won't continue to make such "mundane" posts, or to ignore it and let it pass off the page. there will be no more live vs online wars. We all understand there are differences and we all have personal views on how each is played. The biases each carry should be kept to themselves.

dankness- I can assure you that you are not alone in your opinion. I am doing my best to get good strategy discussion back in this forum (was there ever any?). Like I said, it will not happen over night but when word gets out that civil discussion is taking place here people will come, I promise. For now, please be patient, be courteous, and participate what you can. Each poster contributing is very important to get the ball rolling. Everyone's gotta do there part...
jlocdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 01:19 PM   #33
JumanjiBoard
See my DFS Coaching Thread
 
JumanjiBoard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: SDSU got the fake experts mad
Posts: 11,179
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Sorry if I missed it but how exactly do you speak good strategy discussion here when it's already be seen for a long time that live questions are subpar? Just because threads are civil doesn't necessarily mean good discussion takes place. Call me negative nancy, but there's a reason that most live players are live players and it's not because of the free drinks. I'm not sure if you're an online player but the MSNL FR games are cutthroat and rarely does anyone come out on top over a decent amount of hands as a non reg.
JumanjiBoard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 01:32 PM   #34
TucoRamirez
veteran
 
TucoRamirez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: gslp 4life
Posts: 2,355
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

RobSainter has spoken
TucoRamirez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 01:34 PM   #35
jimmyvjv13
Life Grinder
 
jimmyvjv13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Repping Aces @ZepHendrix
Posts: 4,974
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Agree with Pettey. Most of the live hands posted in this forum are virtually impossible not to flame adn they would get the best responses in the SS forum. The situations presented are often of the lowest level of thinking.

Plus a majority of the people that post here don't even read the strat threads.

I just think you're goign to have a hard time getting a high level of input for free. If you want more quantity that is fine too, it is just going to cause most people to not open the strat threads imo. I read almost all of them and most are instant facepalm.jpg.
jimmyvjv13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 01:35 PM   #36
jlocdog
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lake Tahoe/NYC
Posts: 5,368
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Jason- After some discussion about a live forum, they decided it was not in the best interest of the site. They did try to revamp where to post live hands moving forward to help contain them and put them where they believed their relative skill was based so as to keep the discussion within the thread on par with the overall discussion of the forum.

I decided that I would allow 5/10 hands and up in this forum (and the occasional lower one if it warranted good discussion) since we are sorely lacking strategy discussion. I have edited the sticky to reflect that. If you would like to post any live stakes hand in the SSNL or uNL forum, please be my guest as they are welcome with open arms and thoughtful contributors. The mods within those forms do a great job in keeping the integrity of these posts intact. I just offer this forum as another place you will be able to post them.

As for wanting to move the hands to another forum, well there are threads on our front page from a week and a half ago so it's not like we are pushing valuable threads off the front page in order to appease live threads. If the day ever comes where this forum gets bogged down with mundane threads while valuable threads keep getting buried, I will address the fact immediately, I promise.

OMGitscheddar- The MSNL forum and community is great and I encourage you to participate in there more as well (just don't forget about us here). It is one of the busiest forums on the site however and often times your posts can fly off the front pages quickly. There are still plenty of quality posters in that forum to get feedback from.

As for people only looking to take and not give, well that is just a fact of life. I will do my best to encourage new posters as well as older ones who take on a selfish attitude as this to post more in other threads as well since writing down ones thoughts on a hand and participating in discussion can do wonders for ones own game. It is part of the reason my responses to threads tend to be a little long. I learn from myself as well as allow others to debate the many points I try to bring up so that I can learn from them. And around and around we go...

I'm happy you understand where this green guy is coming from and thank you for understanding. I noticed you took a softer approach in another thread where you explicitly said you trying to be more respectful. Don't think that goes unnoticed. I see everything

hurt- As mentioned the live forum possibility is not an option at this time. I'm sorry to disappoint. As for wanting 200NL in this forum, I was under the impression that the forum members wanted to attempt to keep the discussion at a higher level. Bringing in 200NL posts will only simplify discussion, not advance it. The reason for this has nothing to do with the skill level of many of the people playing at that level. It has to do with it applicability of advanced concepts. The best way to beat that level is often just an ABC game with a few tricks and this type of discussion is debated at lengths in the SSNL forum (rightly so).

If the masses feel I am wrong with this and wish to add lower limit play into this forum, I will absolutely address the issue and make the proper changes. But it seems that it goes against the very philosophy of "high stakes".

Vanguard- The chances of a forums existence for the sole reason being for chat threads is exactly 0%. I am more than happy to have a couple in here (we have 4).
jlocdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 01:37 PM   #37
vinivici9586
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
vinivici9586's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,050
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyvjv13 View Post
I just think you're goign to have a hard time getting a high level of input for free. If you want more quantity that is fine too, it is just going to cause most people to not open the strat threads imo. I read almost all of them and most are instant facepalm.jpg.
qft. just look at highstakes pl/nl. the only posts good regs will (and should) post are wells/prop bets/regs thread stuff. if you want good online content for 400nl-1knl hands, you should probably expand the subforum to include 200nl and maybe 100nl players who are much more willing to post strategy. i definitely see plenty of good midstakes posters go down to small stakes fr.
vinivici9586 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 01:56 PM   #38
Rampage_Jackson
veteran
 
Rampage_Jackson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: i knew it would happen
Posts: 2,773
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

More strategy would be good, there are a couple issues though:

1) If you post a hand with another regular and state all your reads on him, that regular isn't going to be happy you outed a bunch of his tendencies

2) So many of the people we play with would see the board and have a better idea of how we play

3) The answers you currently get to strat questions aren't in depth enough to make it worth posting
Rampage_Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 02:02 PM   #39
jlocdog
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lake Tahoe/NYC
Posts: 5,368
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Jumanji- There are many reasons people choose to play live over online. Not all of them "can't cut it online". Each person has there own motives for why they play and surprisingly (to some), money is not the sole or even main purpose. I agree that the online FR games have gotten increasingly tougher to beat. I applaud our ability to do so.

If live threads don't meet your criteria for advanced concept discussion and critical analyzation then I encourage you to not participate in such threads. I hope y setting a standard with quality online threads and the few live threads that produce meaningful discussion will set the tone for the kind of threads we as a community expect and when someone is debating whether or not to post a thread here they will see how their inquiries stack up to those of others and the level of discussion taking place.

As I did with metski 5/5 post, I will allow the post to stay and let it be known that this community expects people to learn from the members and take proactive steps in their improvement of the game and handle of the fundamentals and concepts. Posters will quickly understand that this may or may not be the right forum to post in when their threads get ignored. They will take their queries to a smaller stake forum. This will happen. But it will only happen if people refrain from leveling because any feedback given, serious or not, just bumps the thread to the top and gives the poster attention that is not warranted or encouraged.

Jimmy- I hope you will be able to refrain from levels even if they seem warranted. I'm telling you that this format of ignoring the bad threads works and will help clean this forum up. I will do my best to let posters who post remedial threads know that the SSNL forum (or some other) may be a better location for their posts to get more detailed feedback.

As for getting a high level of input for free....I completely agree and that is the issue with 2+2 as an overall site as well. It is not a problem relegated to this forum. Since the UIGEA, many sites have been taken away from us and in doing so has made the player pool tougher by 1000% from its heyday. The invention of coaching sites has also deterred posters from offering advice as now they justify it as a money tool (and in some cases they may be right).

As said numerous times, I wholeheartedly respect anyones decision not to participate in strategy talk. I completely understand if you feel such discusiion would be detrimental to your game. I only ask that you stay out of the discussion completely if that is your stance. Just because you don't want to engage in such acts does not mean others must follow in your path. The purpose of this sub-forum is explicitly to talk strategy. The chat threads became a byproduct of a community coming together and befriending each other on some level. So please don't forget why the forum exists in the first place. I do encourage the community to stay intact and use the chat threads to bullshyt as they please. Again though, I only ask you stay out of the strategy threads if you don't wish to be constructive within them.
jlocdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 02:14 PM   #40
jlocdog
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lake Tahoe/NYC
Posts: 5,368
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Rampage- I tend to agree with you and have always thought that naming your opponent was a bad idea for countless reasons, many of which are ethical and many of which are conventional. You allow that person to learn how others think about him/her. They become unhappy that you break his/her game down in a public forum. You educate others on how to play against said opponent. Etc. Bad for business all around.

I always thought a detailed description of how you depict your opponent to be was a MUCH better way to go about it. If you look at some of my threads I started (granted most are live but a few are online), you will see I try to give a few sentences about each player (including myself) to be able to set the tone for others to properly comment on. People have to remember that poker is not static and that just because you may have notes on a player, at the time of the hand in question, he may be acting or playing differently from his norm. These are adjustments that need to be made and removing the rote that infiltrates many peoples game.

As for getting good strategy moving forward....it will never be like the good ol days for reasons stated (UIGEA, coaching sites, competitiveness, etc..). We have to learn to accept that. This does not mean we can't hold higher level discussion on some occasions. Some threads just bring it out. Just don't expect it to permeate throughout each thread as that is just an unrealistic goal. Be thankful when a thread pops up that elicits such discussion. Don't harp on the countless "boring" threads. View the glass half full and be thankful for what you get. If you keep expectations low and an open mind, you will be pleasantly surprised and what you get.
jlocdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 02:48 PM   #41
JumanjiBoard
See my DFS Coaching Thread
 
JumanjiBoard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: SDSU got the fake experts mad
Posts: 11,179
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

This isn't live poker though where you play so many different opponets. We play the same regulars EVERY SINGLE DAY. If someone posted a hand about me without saying my name, I'd be smart enough to notice that it's me they speak of. Then I'm getting free info about myself. I still see no reason to post here any strategy, and like everyone else would rather ask friends.
JumanjiBoard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 02:52 PM   #42
jlocdog
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lake Tahoe/NYC
Posts: 5,368
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Then please continue to go about what you think is best for you. I respect your stance.
jlocdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 03:46 PM   #43
DoubleFly
Pooh-Bah
 
DoubleFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Still Bloggin, Stakin, & Affiliatin
Posts: 5,987
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

I think your best bet wrt getting strategy going is to offer some sort of "carrot" to the dozens of coaches out there. Not sure if 2+2 cares enough about getting strategy going to give free/discounted advertising, or whatever.
DoubleFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 03:49 PM   #44
JumanjiBoard
See my DFS Coaching Thread
 
JumanjiBoard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: SDSU got the fake experts mad
Posts: 11,179
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

DFly like a true parent (are you even a parent?) offering treats to better things.
JumanjiBoard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 04:23 PM   #45
NL__Fool
veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,603
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlocdog View Post
oldschool,

Also, I thought one of the stipulations of having the moniker "sponsored coach" was that you are supposed to be posting "good strat".
Not since we were forced to pay for our Coaching thread. 2+2 did a complete reversal on that one. The almighty $$ took care of that.

As far as the Strategy postings go, most of the strat discussions these days go along the lines of:

OP: I do x in this spot, good or bad?
Random Reply 1 : Thats ****ing horrible
OP: WHY?
Random Reply 1: Because I said so and anyone who doesn't think so is an as*
OP: Well thx for the helpful contribution, moron
Randon Reply 2: Forgot him OP your line is fantastic, 4 betting and then folding 39% of your stack preflop with AQs is the right play don't anyone tell you otherwise, nice play
Op Thanks, I thought so
Random Person #2: Your welcome, whats your Screen name?
Random Person #3 (Inserts hot woman pics here)


Thats the reason I stopped posting strat.


The 2+2 gold mine strat disucssions of 6 years ago is gone, There's the odd useful nugget here and there but you have to shovel thruru 20 tons of **** to find them. It's kinda sad because 2 +2 is where I learned to play.

You will be hard pressed to improve the current state of the strat discussion while bs like above goes on, thats because 2+2 has gotten so large. 6-7 years ago it was much smaller and the community was much friendlier and more inclined to help people learn how to play poker.
NL__Fool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 04:33 PM   #46
jlocdog
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lake Tahoe/NYC
Posts: 5,368
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

NL__Fool- That is a funny and accurate depiction of the state of many threads. Those are exactly the type threads that will no longer exist in this forum.

I agree the glory days are behind us. But as you said there are still some nuggets here and there and that is what we all search for. I hope to make this forum filled with those nuggets and if we can have threads that won't get derailed or trolled, we will have the best shot at making that happen. What I do is find posters whom I respect and then follow there posts. There are still a handful of posters who continually offer great advice and different perspectives and I make sure to soak it up.

Granted the pool of good posters has decreased immensely over the years but again, I tend to view the world with the glass half full. It's just better than the alternative. Negativity and hostility bore me.
jlocdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 05:57 PM   #47
Verstehen
old hand
 
Verstehen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: growing old battling the donks
Posts: 1,679
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Speaking as a lurker... I play a lot of 200NL FR and although I am rolled for 2/4 I don't dip my toes in very often, partly because I'm fairly new to FR (used to only play 6max and HU but needed to diversify). I read this forum daily just to see what good players are thinking and what kind of situations they find difficult... same reason I read SSNL, HUNL and MSNL. I check the regs threads just to see how people are feeling about the state of the games and the little changes in online poker e.g. FTP raising the min buy-in from 20bb.

Given how small the player pool is for FR at mid-stakes and above, it's not too surprising that people are pretty guarded about giving up information. I've never played a hand of stars midstakes yet I recognize the vast majority of people at the tables just from this forum, which I doubt would be true at almost any other form of poker (6max, limit, small stakes, tournaments, omaha etc etc). At 200NL the poker economy is just so huge and tons of players just aren't part of forums or other online learning tools; at midstakes the money becomes more real and people become more ruthless. Yes there is more discussion at MSNL but it gets very trolly and so so much of it is snappy one-liners like "call obv terrible wtf."

2p2 is just a gathering place for people who play poker seriously, a sort of social club mostly. As someone in MSNL put it 2p2 has "gone hollywood" and can't ever go back to the smaller community days (which I obviously wasn't part of, see my join date).

As far as improvements, I really agree with Hurt that FR would best be chopped up into low stakes, medium stakes including 200NL, and live as its own separate thing. I'm surprised 2p2 is so opposed to this given that there is a brick and mortar forum but I guess it has to be that way.

The live threads are generally pretty terrible. Unlike most people on 2p2 I have no IRL serious poker friends, the people I know who play poker is super-fish live donks or losing micro players... and like EVERY hand they want to talk about involves either folding AK/QQ/KK preflop or making some hilariously tight postflop fold (my favorite being folding KK on a JT4 two tone board closing the action and getting 12:1 because he "knew he was beat.") I guess the best answer is just to mod all those live 2/5 threads down to micro NL where they belong.

Obviously I also check daily for updates on "Internet vs. Live" which is tied with "truly awesome sharkscope graphs" for the greatest ongoing 2p2 thread

Last edited by jlocdog; 02-09-2010 at 06:12 PM. Reason: erased pics so as not to sidetrack this discussion (and I agree that thread is hilarious)
Verstehen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 06:22 PM   #48
jlocdog
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lake Tahoe/NYC
Posts: 5,368
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Verstehen- I deleted the pics copied from the live vs online thread because I don't want to have this thread turn into a pic filled thread. It is meant for discussion on ways to improve the forum.

What I think many are missing or are ignoring is that I understand why some don't want to post strategy and why strategy threads have diminished in quality and quantity. I have only asked those that don't wish to participate to please refrain from any activity within them....not an unreasonable request, no?

Also, if you have any more funny pics/sayings, I urge you to continue to post them in the live vs online thread. It is the gift that keeps on giving.
jlocdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 06:35 PM   #49
hurt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
hurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,148
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlocdog View Post
hurt- As mentioned the live forum possibility is not an option at this time. I'm sorry to disappoint.
Quote:
Bringing in 200NL posts will only simplify discussion, not advance it. The reason for this has nothing to do with the skill level of many of the people playing at that level. It has to do with it applicability of advanced concepts. The best way to beat that level is often just an ABC game with a few tricks and this type of discussion is debated at lengths in the SSNL forum (rightly so).
if you ask me, these 2 statements clearly contradict eachother.

how do you, in one breath, say that you cannot include 200NL hands because of applicability of advanced concepts and the fact that it takes an "ABC game" to beat 200NL, and in another say that a live forum cannot created?

clearly, live games generally play loose/passive/soft and play way closer to microstakes games than to 200NL online games. i think it's a given that the skill gap between 200NL and 400-1kNL FR is orders of magnitude smaller than the skill gap between your average live game (minus maybe nosebleed stakes) and 400-1kNL FR.

why is it that the "higher ups" do not want separate live forums? are they open to changing their stance on the matter?
hurt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 06:38 PM   #50
JumanjiBoard
See my DFS Coaching Thread
 
JumanjiBoard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: SDSU got the fake experts mad
Posts: 11,179
Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

jlocdog, are you an online poker player? I'm curious, and if so do you mind sharing your username?
JumanjiBoard is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online