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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 05-16-2017, 04:05 PM   #1
diskoteque
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Boring 10/25 river decision

Live casino game
Effective stacks 5k

Hero has standard tag image

Villain is also a solid tag but stuck nearly two buyins (though about an hour removed from most recent stacking)

***

Utg limps folds to hero (BTN) and I raise to 100 with Q9ss. Villain (BB) 3bets to 350, UTG folds and I call.

Flop (pot 725) AQ9r

Villain bets 450 I call

Turn (pot 1625) 8 brining back door flush

Villain bets 900 I call

River (3425) 5r

Villain all in for pot size bet, hero ???

***

I'm generally not one for giving a crap about balance but it feels like I'm at the top of my range here assuming I raise AQ and sets at some point before river. How bad is it to not defend against a triple barrel here? Only bluff I can reasonably give him is KT/KJ that turned a flush draw.

Also interested in thoughts on turn call vs raise. Initial plan was to call with the expectation he would check call anything with Ax.
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Old 05-16-2017, 04:19 PM   #2
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

I don't think you raise any hands ever on any street imo
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Old 05-16-2017, 04:27 PM   #3
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

I may click it back/ raise small with QQ or 99 when the flush draw comes in but thinking about it some more maybe not.

If that's the case then my call call call range would be AQ QQ 99 only? I don't even feel great about calling down with AQ but I suppose I'd have to call since I block AA/QQ?

Not really an exciting hand but left it thinking my play could be easily exploited here.
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Old 05-16-2017, 05:23 PM   #4
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

really easy call down wat am i missing
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Old 05-16-2017, 05:28 PM   #5
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
really easy call down wat am i missing


What ls his range iyo
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Old 05-16-2017, 05:34 PM   #6
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

well idk is he only 3b aa/qq/ak here
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Old 05-16-2017, 06:22 PM   #7
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

Call.

V's line is pretty FOS. The 8 OTT completes the main draw OTF, (JT), and V keeps barreling. It looks like he is merging a one pair hand, KK/JJ, into a bluff. I'd grit my teeth and call the river shove.
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Old 05-16-2017, 07:22 PM   #8
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

Fold. I dont think he has enough bluffs, and you dont beat any value hands

You have J10s, AQ, QQ, 99 to call down with.

And yes, dont ever raise the flop or turn with any hand.
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:02 PM   #9
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
I don't think you raise any hands ever on any street imo
Yeah I agree

As for river, I wouldn't say we're at the top of our range but we block QQ, 99, AQ, A9. We don't have that many hands that get to the river so I guess this is a call given our holding and the odds we're facing.

He's risking 1:1 so we gotta call with half our hands. This one has decent removal and is linearly within our top 50% I think, so I call.

That being said, like Minatorr mentioned, he's unlikely to be bluffing at the "proper" frequency so we could probably fold this and call AQ, 99, QQ, JTs, A9s. I think we're "overfolding" if we fold this hand though fwiw
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:19 PM   #10
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

i mean ur supposed to call but if he never bluffs than you dont have to call this hand
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:31 PM   #11
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

fold pre. Now fold river.
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:36 PM   #12
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

You need him to have KT/KJs and be bluffing here. Or betting Ak for value If he is then call if not fold


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Old 05-16-2017, 09:23 PM   #13
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

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Originally Posted by day'n'night View Post
fold pre. Now fold river.
Just curious, why fold pre?
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:51 AM   #14
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

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Originally Posted by Jarretman View Post
Just curious, why fold pre?
Because it flops terribly vs a 3bet range. See discussion in this thread...
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/11...54/?highlight=
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Old 05-17-2017, 04:31 AM   #15
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

folding q9s ip to a 3.5x btn vs bb 250bb deep seems a little silly
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Old 05-17-2017, 06:13 AM   #16
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

but its not BTNvsBB. Its UTG limp, we iso, and now BB 3b. His range will be so much stronger then if we had just opened BTN and he 3b us, in which case we obv call.
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:29 AM   #17
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

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Originally Posted by day'n'night View Post
but its not BTNvsBB. Its UTG limp, we iso, and now BB 3b. His range will be so much stronger then if we had just opened BTN and he 3b us, in which case we obv call.
^This
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:49 AM   #18
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

AQ985

You can have TJs, QQ, 99, AQ, A9s, A8s that are better than Q9s
You may have ATs, AJ, maybe KQs, QJs( with bdfd, you did not mention the suit) that are worse.

To effectively defend 50% of the river, Q9s might be close to folding range

you should never raise any hand OTF and OTT
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:18 AM   #19
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Boring 10/25 river decision

Thanks the more I think about it I agree raising on turn with (especially with anything less than JT) isn't great.

On the call 3b range chat, tbh if I'm 200bb deep and in position I very rarely fold suited Broadways. ( yes know Q9 isn't a broadway) unless villain is a super solid/aggressive player that won't be shook when I put pressure on him later in hand.

In the linked hand, I think KJ is a fold because of the UTG stack size which meant the 3b there was super strong. But in general I think if we are folding QTss KJss etc in position we are overfolding. With KJo and the like I'm using those in my bluff 4b range along with small suites Aces. So what's your call range then? Pocket pairs only??
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:40 AM   #20
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

I know that reads like a very amateurish preflop hand chart request but I'm really interested to see what range you're defending 3Bs with in position and relatively deep.
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Old 05-17-2017, 04:05 PM   #21
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

I think they're saying defend hands like 65s and 98s, which play much better/flop smoother against a 3b range

I still don't agree that this is a fold tho. I fail to see how the limper makes each players respective ranges that much stronger. Should still be isoing a fish limping utg pretty wide
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Old 05-17-2017, 04:35 PM   #22
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by day'n'night View Post
but its not BTNvsBB. Its UTG limp, we iso, and now BB 3b. His range will be so much stronger then if we had just opened BTN and he 3b us, in which case we obv call.
Yea this makes sense
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Old 05-20-2017, 03:28 AM   #23
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

Seems like a fold even though your hand is like the best bluff catcher possible. Only a sicko would have enough bluffs in this spot.
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Old 05-20-2017, 04:15 AM   #24
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

I mean he could still be wide and just standard raising you raising a limp with maybe a dash of tilt mixed in. Problem is all his semi-reasonable 3b bluffs got there all the way down to 76s.
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Old 05-20-2017, 12:33 PM   #25
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Re: Boring 10/25 river decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
I don't think you raise any hands ever on any street imo
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
i mean ur supposed to call but if he never bluffs than you dont have to call this hand
And this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by day'n'night View Post
fold pre. Now fold river.
Never folding pre vs this sizing. If he's 3betting super narrow, fine.
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