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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 08-19-2012, 09:45 PM   #1
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Borgata 5/10 - Villain's bizarre betsizing line = herocall?

Effective stacks = $2500

***

Hero: Internet Kid-image. Having a small winning session and haven't shown down any hands (but did show a successful 3-barrell bluff).

Villain #1: Young kid, seems a bit loose-passive. We were playing 3 and 4 handed for about an hour and this villain would continuously try to trap with big hands. As table filled up he's been playing a bit more straightforward. Limp/calls a ton preflop but seems generally competent. Has made comment's about hero's aggressiveness in position/squeezes.

Villain #2 and Villain #3: Kinda irrelevant in this hand. Both loose-passive fishes who will chase with any draw. Typical passive fish.

***

Hero has QJ

Villain #3 (UTG) raises to 35. Villain #1 calls (UTG+1), Hero calls (BTN), Villain #2 calls (SB).

Flop ($140): Q45

Villain #2 (SB) checks, Villain #3 (UTG, preflop raiser) checks, Villain #1 bets $75, Hero calls, Villains #2 and #3 both call.

Thoughts: Villain #1 could be taking a stab after the preflop raiser checks but I'm pretty sure he has at least some piece of this board as he's been playing fairly straightforward. Only a half-pot bet so I don't expect him to be really strong here. Fish villains could have anything but are almost certainly week.

Turn ($440): Q455

Villains #2 and #3 check, Villain #1 bets $75 Hero calls (???), Villains #2 and #3 fold (lol).

Thoughts: At this point I think Villain's betsizing screams draw but $75 into this pot is still super small, even for that. Could have quads or a boat, but I expect him to bet larger on flop with sets too. I don't think I can raise here since fish villains have 5s in their range.

River ($590): Q4559

Villain insta-bets $500. Hero ???
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:27 PM   #2
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I think I'd raise/fold the turn to $200 and check back the river unless I improved.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:56 PM   #3
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Re: Borgata 5/10 - Villain's bizarre betsizing line = herocall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoteque View Post
Effective stacks = $2500

***

Hero: Internet Kid-image. Having a small winning session and haven't shown down any hands (but did show a successful 3-barrell bluff).

Villain #1: Young kid, seems a bit loose-passive. We were playing 3 and 4 handed for about an hour and this villain would continuously try to trap with big hands. As table filled up he's been playing a bit more straightforward. Limp/calls a ton preflop but seems generally competent. Has made comment's about hero's aggressiveness in position/squeezes.

Villain #2 and Villain #3: Kinda irrelevant in this hand. Both loose-passive fishes who will chase with any draw. Typical passive fish.

***

Hero has QJ

Villain #3 (UTG) raises to 35. Villain #1 calls (UTG+1), Hero calls (BTN), Villain #2 calls (SB).

Flop ($140): Q45

Villain #2 (SB) checks, Villain #3 (UTG, preflop raiser) checks, Villain #1 bets $75, Hero calls, Villains #2 and #3 both call.

Thoughts: Villain #1 could be taking a stab after the preflop raiser checks but I'm pretty sure he has at least some piece of this board as he's been playing fairly straightforward. Only a half-pot bet so I don't expect him to be really strong here. Fish villains could have anything but are almost certainly week.

Turn ($440): Q455

Villains #2 and #3 check, Villain #1 bets $75 Hero calls (???), Villains #2 and #3 fold (lol).

Thoughts: At this point I think Villain's betsizing screams draw but $75 into this pot is still super small, even for that. Could have quads or a boat, but I expect him to bet larger on flop with sets too. I don't think I can raise here since fish villains have 5s in their range.

River ($590): Q4559

Villain insta-bets $500. Hero ???
Not a fan of the turn flat, but as played I am snap-calling the river as villian is repping q9/99.
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:10 PM   #4
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Re: Borgata 5/10 - Villain's bizarre betsizing line = herocall?

I thought villain was repping some 5...or a boat

Against some loose, trappy person I'm ready to get it in on the flop.

As played I call and take note.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:24 AM   #5
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Re: Borgata 5/10 - Villain's bizarre betsizing line = herocall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shpanko View Post
I think I'd raise/fold the turn to $200 and check back the river unless I improved.
Raising to $200 allows villain to call with any flush draw. I'd make it $300 and follow up your plan.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:04 AM   #6
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Re: Borgata 5/10 - Villain's bizarre betsizing line = herocall?

I like a 3-bet better pre- until said opponents are in 4bet/fold, it's a great time to use this play and misrepresent your range!

ATHWP:

IMO your hand is very face up as a draw or weak Qx that does not get value from raising. I'm not sure if I am raising the turn it's close and I think if I railed the hand I would know. This being said I like a fold line OTR, I don't like it if you called.
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:48 AM   #7
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Re: Borgata 5/10 - Villain's bizarre betsizing line = herocall?

This line (in a vaccuum) smells like 4's full and nothing else to me, especially the small turn bet/bomb river bet combo. With very few reads (like you have never seen him do this with busted draws or weak top pair hands) and describing him as "trappy", I think this is a fold.
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Old 08-20-2012, 12:42 PM   #8
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Re: Borgata 5/10 - Villain's bizarre betsizing line = herocall?

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Originally Posted by shorn7 View Post
smells like 4's full and nothing else to me, especially the small turn bet/bomb river bet combo.
yea he reeks of full boat
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Old 08-20-2012, 03:56 PM   #9
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Re: Borgata 5/10 - Villain's bizarre betsizing line = herocall?

easy fold imo

fish don't big bet bluff usually and the ones that do you should def have had seen it before cause they usually keep repeating the same moves.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:16 PM   #10
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Re: Borgata 5/10 - Villain's bizarre betsizing line = herocall?

call is fine. but raise/fold turn and check back river unless you're specifically trying to catch him doing exactly what he did. i'd like more of a read on villain before doing this.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:49 PM   #11
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Re: Borgata 5/10 - Villain's bizarre betsizing line = herocall?

Snap fold river. Villain may well be betting mid pair, or mid pair+flush on this board (I certainly do a decent amt vs 1 solid + 2 fish right here).
I'dve played it like you until the river, but I Really like the raise fold turn line suggested itt, if you checkback any river that is checked to you.
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:15 PM   #12
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Re: Borgata 5/10 - Villain's bizarre betsizing line = herocall?

turn c/r river checkback line is interesting and the more i think about it the more i like it.

Last edited by jlocdog; 08-21-2012 at 04:00 AM.
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:35 PM   #13
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Re: Borgata 5/10 - Villain's bizarre betsizing line = herocall?

It seems hero's hand is pretty face up as a one pair bluff catcher type hand (or a FD), so why would villian bet small/bet smaller/bomb river unless he just wants to win with little to no show down value. It seems like a big part of his range is flush draws. His value range is so narrow -- does he fire half pot into the field otf with middle pair? And if he turns trips, doesn't he want to protect vs FDs? As a previous poster said, his value range is 4s full. Which makes me lean towards a call.
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:21 PM   #14
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Re: Borgata 5/10 - Villain's bizarre betsizing line = herocall?

Chili, do you ever bluff here, w. this line?
Have you ever taken lines like after cultivating a crazyish image?

(I defer that you are one of the most solid players around)

Full Analysis:
When I've taken lines like this, or seen other thinking+maniacal+young lags take a line like this, its almost always a decently big hand; the value range is wider than expected here, which is required from a pre-flop range that is super-wide to begin with. V1 seems like a player who came up the live ranks, cultivating a style that maximizes the number of flops seen as part of a way to maximize opportunities to donkey crush by capitalizing on bet-sizing errors, bet-sizing tells, and other generally AWFUL Post-Flop play that live villains often exhibit. Given this case, I would suggest a few things:

1) Villains range is WAY wider than we expect here; I believe that it includes both missed draws (straight and flush), and a super-wide value range: AQ+, maybe even KQ+. I think that random 5s ARE in his range, w/ a flop leadout (very good spot to merge a mid-pair on flop, not the best flop to call flop multi-way with hands like 66-JJ, good spot to call with draws instead of raise with them given that action is 4way postflop and a lead seems extremely strong to you while the fish will never raise w/o a monster at which point they will ALWAYS raise).
2) Given that villains range is way wide on this river, it may be possible to raise the turn to blow him off some of his range (it may also be possible to bomb-raise the river as a move, but as I'm not DGAF I'm not sure what I need to see/know to try to execute this).
3) This wacky-ass line is the kind of cheese I would use to induce spew, when I was holding some kindof joint (trips, boats, etc). Unless villain made up his mind to bomb river regardless, I think that the turn bet was meant to induce a raise, and the river bomb is a value line designed to extract value from some mediocre-to-decent hand held by a guy who can't figure out wtf villain is repping here.

If we wanted to punish villain for trying to push around draws and random stuff here, the raise/fold turn line would be optimal. However, I think that would be a suicidalish given that I believe that the turn bet was likely designed to induce a raise from a thinking player.

In conclusion:
Fold River > Raise/Fold Turn + checkback /fold river > Call here
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Old 08-22-2012, 08:54 AM   #15
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Re: Borgata 5/10 - Villain's bizarre betsizing line = herocall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maskk View Post
If we wanted to punish villain for trying to push around draws and random stuff here, the raise/fold turn line would be optimal.
In conclusion:
Fold River > Raise/Fold Turn + checkback /fold river > Call here
+1. Seems a lot more like a boat trying to get value from a hand that can't figure out wtf is going on.
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