AK 200 BB's deep on BTN facing a 4 bet 5/10 Live - Medium High Stakes Full Ring Poker

WorldBoFree · 07-22-2011, 08:56 PM

Leading up to this hand, I had been the most active at a table full of young Tags for the most part. I think I had squeezed on the button twice before this in the last hour or so, and I had probably 3 bet 5 times in two hours. People didn't seem to be noticing much though.

Villian is considered to be the most solid winners in the game. He's on the aggressive side of STAG, and will open up and play laggy. He and I haven't played much together, so I don't have a ton of reads, but I do know we have similar styles. I know he 3 bets more than most Live regs, and so do I. This is the first hand we've played together in the session.

Hero: $2200
Villian: $2400

Villian opens to $35 from Hijack, Young Tag (whom I've 3 bet a few times and gotten folds) flats in CO, Hero 3 bets to $135 with AK off from Button.

Villian thinks for about 10-15 seconds and quickly throws out a 4 bet of $400.

Hero?

TimeBomb · 07-22-2011, 10:37 PM

Metagame is always fun here and I am shipping most of the time. I think between your table image and the fact that co flatted makes your button raise kinda disguised. Somewhat marginal spot as I don't think villian is going to fold too often, so if you do fold try to make it quick and don't tell anyone what you folded

There are a couple players in my reg 5/10 game where we regularly get it in with any top 5 hand, but the nits I won't even 3bet or call a 3bet with ak.

PokahBlows · 07-23-2011, 12:43 AM

5bet shove

Finister18 · 07-23-2011, 01:41 AM

I call IP and play poker post-flop. Shipping here will look to good player like AK--he might fold, but I don't like flipping for 200bbs with the worst of it.

BoredAtheist · 02-02-2012, 06:41 PM

I fold to the 4-bet.

I think you're slightly ahead of his range right now, but stack sizes are VERY awkward. Any 5-bet you make is pretty much equivalent to shoving, which means you must risk $2065 to win a measly $585. He must fold a whopping 78% of the time for this move to be profitable through fold equity alone. He is putting you in a win-a-small-pot-or-lose-a-huge-pot situation and there isn't really anything you can do about it except wait for the nuts. You may be ahead, but you're not THAT far ahead. Shoving here is basically a bluff, as he never calls with worse. You have a premium bluffing hand, sure, but that doesn't mean you have to pull the trigger every time.

Calling is similarly awkward. Two-thirds of the time, when you don't flop a pair, he probably takes the pot. And the other one-third of the time, when you do flop a pair, you either win a small pot or lose a huge pot to his AA/KK.

So fold.

WorldBoFree · 02-02-2012, 08:45 PM

Interesting. Seems like I've gotten every response possible in four posts.

Fold, Call, Ship.

If I 5 bet to like 900, I'm risking like $770 to win $605....and I'm always calling a shove.... So.....not sure that's very good. Jamming is probably better than 5 betting, but when you jam is just looks like exactly what it is....AK.

If I flat, it's $265 to win $885, plus what's behind possibly (1800 or so). I have position, have a somewhat wide range, and still deep enough to play two streets. Pot will be like $885 or so, and we'll both have like 1800 behind. So we're getting 3 to 1 on our immediate call, while over 100 BB's deep, and may be able to make his life hell on coordinated boards? Although, people don't really fold over pairs in 3 bet pots, so I don't know how realistic it is to think we might be able to use position to win pots when we miss. On the other hand, people tend to play much more straight forwardly in 3 bet pots as well, so there's that.

Against this player, who flatted from the CO, I think it's a pretty big mistake to fold this deep with AK. Am I missing something?

sknight · 02-02-2012, 09:09 PM

I would just give him credit for a big hand he's not folding and move on. Tell him he's on probation and to keep that bs to a minimum.

bdsinc · 02-02-2012, 09:13 PM

A fold sounds about right at a table full of TAG regs. In game I probably stuff it in his face because F him.

WorldBoFree · 02-02-2012, 09:24 PM

Fold? Really?

This is a guy who 3 bets probably more than 98% of live players, and is probably never slow playing a monster because of his wide 3 betting range/image.

bdsinc · 02-02-2012, 09:37 PM

He opened and 4 bet?? Or is the CO the guy who is the villain and 4 bettor?

WorldBoFree · 02-02-2012, 09:52 PM

It was a while back now, but I think he opened, solid tight-ish guy flatted, I squeezed on the button. At first I remembered it differently.

bdsinc · 02-02-2012, 11:42 PM

Like I said in game with your current image, 3 betting a lot etc, I can't see myself not shoving. I'd level myself into thinking he is playing back at me, I'm OTB so it appears I could be lighter. In reality, it's just as, or more likely that someone found a real hand to playback at you with.

That said, from a neutral position I think shoving is at the very least high variance and maybe -ev.

As for calling, do we really make money post if he has jj or qq and we flop an ace? Likely we do get one more bet but for all the times we fold the flop its not worth it IMO. If he is 4 betting lighter than JJ then i think it's better to just rip it pre because we can fold out a lot of hands. I have only played 70 hrs of 5/10 so I'm not as comfortable post flop against good regs yet.

Then folding and not telling anyone ever. It seems really really weak but with out going into the math I think it's best against a 4 bet range of JJ+AK.

Fold<shove<call

663366 · 02-03-2012, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WorldBoFree

Leading up to this hand, I had been the most active at a table full of young Tags for the most part. I think I had squeezed on the button twice before this in the last hour or so, and I had probably 3 bet 5 times in two hours.

If that is the "most active" player at the table over 2 hours then I think the table is full of young NITS.

Quote:

Hero?

Click it back.

smokingrobot · 02-03-2012, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WorldBoFree

Leading up to this hand, I had been the most active at a table full of young Tags for the most part. I think I had squeezed on the button twice before this in the last hour or so

and

Quote:

Originally Posted by WorldBoFree

will open up and play laggy... I know he 3 bets more than most Live regs

i mean, when you put it like this... it sounds like click it back.

also Well played on that gnome chipmunk story, that **** was hillarious.

663366 · 02-03-2012, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokingrobot

and

i mean, when you put it like this... it sounds like click it back.

The last time I saw someone 5bet min in position in a live game 200bb+ deep, the opponent(LAG for that matter) tanked forever and called with KK then checked his overpair to showdown on QxxTx board. The time before that someone folded QQ face up preflop.

So yeah you pretty much bluff out a bunch of hands you race/chop with, and shut down his valuebets postflop unless he's got the nuts.