$600 effective. TAG opens to 18 utg, unknown calls UTG1, two more calls, I call 99sc in SB, BB calls. 6 way to the flop.

Flop J93dd ($108). Checks to UTG1 who bets 72, fold, fold, action on us...

Leading here is certainly a good option, but what size? Thoughts as played? Tough not to look nutted here unless we call, but I really don't want to give any free cards.

Sorry meant to post this in MHSFR. Please move.

Raise to $165

Not a penny less, not a penny more.

190

I don't think leading would have optimal with your nut relative position to a TAG UTG open and a lot of potential dead money/bloated pot between the two of you.

Basically I'm always trying to create as much dead money as possible in spots like this. Like I would be more more behind a lead from the sb if tight CO had opened and some ep limpers had limp/called.

I'd lead here a lot if there were less people in the hand (4 or less maybe) or just one whale behind. With six people in the pot we are going to get a bet so often. The value of a bet and a call before we act or a bet and a raise is so huge and so likely that I think I just check most of the time. If I donked, I'd lead about 2/3 pot which I would do with my whole leading range.

As played, I can't think of any merit for not raising. His strong draws are going with the hand anyways so we might as well charge him now. A lot of players will check weak draws on the turn so we gain basically nothing by calling here vs those hands. Strong jacks, as well as other obvious value hands (33, QQ) will probably go with their hand after betting into 6 people on this drawy of a flop. Outside of keeping in a potential overpair from a pot-controlling UTG, I can't really think of a reason to flat here.

Does anyone have a raise/fold range here?

I surely won't have any range with /fold in it.

100bb deep ? I would be surprised

If we are never raise/folding, thoughts on c/ship?

c/ship could easily fold out hands that are drawing v slim. I would never raise fold

I would only ever ship if there were meta/balance issues in play in a regular game.

Raise to $200 / Shove any turn.

So it's fine to just say "hello, I have a set" turn your cards face up and then raise? That's what we are effectively doing here.

It's pretty hard to start balanced 4 way on this type of board texture.

I think it's fine to play face up considering we have some big draws in our raise flop / shove turn range which can still get called by some bluff catchers.

Depends on your definition of bluffing. I most likely wouldn't have any pure bluffs here like KQo which I would have if we were much deeper. But we don't really need a pure bluff range here. Technically check raising strong draws like the NFD and combo draws is bluffing which I would certainly do given SPRs. We can balance value raises with these draws rather than pure bluffs. I know that gives him less incentive to go with weaker hands in his range that we want him stacking but I think raising is still optimal.

I mean that just depends on how you think he will react to a ship vs a normal sized raise and your range in this spot. You should do the same thing with your value / draw range in this spot despite the fact that it is a rare situation. I generally choose a smaller raise size when applicable because that is just how I play. In a vacuum I don't think it matters that much what size you raise to, either way it looks like you are going with the hand. Like I said earlier, I don't have a pure bluff range in this spot and I would guess the vast majority of people do not, so any raise is going to look committing. If you think he puts you on draws more if you c/jam, which some people certainly do, then we may get more calls from Jx then check jam wins. At the same time, if this is the case, he may fold weak draws to a jam that he might jam himself because he perceives non-existent fold equity when you raise to 2.5x. Yeah, I just don't think it matters that much.

Rly depends on how you wanna play your draws
Think cr is fine but cc is fine as you'll have a lot
Of jx and stuff that will want to cc. Villain will have plenty of
Runouts he wants to barrel and this hand is plenty strong enough to play for 100bb stacks on many/most runouts
Think if you like to cr flops more with your overall strat then this is a rly ez cr

what are you doing here with your really strong draws?

Having a raise/fold range against a guy leading into a 6 way pot would be a disaster......Id just jam it in

I should have been more precise: flop was Jx9d3c.

My thinking here was: If I don't have a raise/fold range here (and a good villain likely knows this), I shouldn't let villain see a turn without putting in his whole stack. So I shoved and villain eventually called with KQdd. He binked an Ad on the turn and I got there with another A on the river.

Assuming I take this line with AJdd, KJdd, QJdd, TJdd, KQdd, QTdd, T8dd, 78dd, A2dd-ATdd, J9s, 99, and 33, villain has 37.5 equity and he has a slightly losing call with AJss.

Can this be elaborated on a bit further? I get the high level but not sure I understand the full philosophy here

This is why I ask the question above

Sorry, just saw this.
This is one of those hands that plays different online than live by a lot.100bb deep, this is almost always a jam IMO. With flush and straight draws out there, either one will call a jam.

I'm actually a little surprised at the post coming from you. I'm pretty sure your jamming most times in this situation. Maybe your just getting a consensus on what public opinion is, not sure.

Anyway, nice hand. Even though you posting this is a little weird. Almost as weird as AA giving a reply to same.

If you're raise/folding KQo you should raise small, otherwise just gii

Raising to set up a turn jam is 'standard' line here, at least online. (Villain calling off a shove with a straight draw would be pretty bad here against the shoving range I posted earlier.) Raising to shove turn would definitely be the line I would use in a live game where villain has a lot of suited nonsense and is more likely to make bad calls with hands like KQ or even 9x.

(I'm usually squeezing KQ/AJ preflop and I'm check/folding all of my bare top pairs in this spot.)

When we raise flop, villain basically KNOWS we are always calling a jam and always shoving blank turns I think it may be best not to allow villain to play the rest of the hand in position against such a face up strategy when we can just jam in our whole continuing range and force a fold from a lot of made hands and medium equity draws.

If we jam the range I posted earlier (AJdd, KJdd, QJdd, TJdd, KQdd, QTdd, T8dd, 78dd, A2dd-ATdd, J9s, 99, and 33) villain is forced to fold all of his bare top pair and weaker draws (or make a mistake) and he isn't able to realize his equity in the pot.

I still haven't fully convinced myself that this is definitely the best line, but it certainly seems to have its advantages.