I virtually never trust live reads. This situation with a player folding and showing his neighbor a single card seems like info too good to pass up.

2-3
Mp1(1500)- crazy, been randomly opening to 50-100, sometimes blind
Mp2(covers)- lady in her 50's. Haven't seen anything out of line. Won some big pots off of mp1 all with solid hands(flatted 88 flop a set. flatted AKs flop nfd)
Co Me(660)- AhAd tightish image
Sb(520)- tight(he's a friend, usually not looking to play pots with me)

Mp1 opens to 50, Mp2 calls, I make it 155, Sb calls, Mp1 calls, Mp2 calls

Flop(620): K22r. Ck, Ck, lady leads 150, i call, Sb calls, Mp1 agonizingly tank folds showing one card to his neighbor(obv showing a King, he'd never fold a 2)

Turn(1070): Qr. lady bets 200, i call, Sb 215, we both call 15 more.

River(1715): J. She bets 150, i call all in.


My reads were mp2 has ak/kq/22 maybe A2s, mp1 showed a king and folded, sb has to have AK, AA, maybe KK if mp2 somehow doesn't have one.
Usually I'd more than 3x an open and call but it's such a huge open I didn't know about the sizing. Thoughts on how I played it?

This hand is a bit if mess.....don't mind your 3 bet size, I'm this spot....the 50 open is nuts and is why this hand ends up in mess....I geuss that's the type of action villan is trying to force...
After the flop action we just arnt going to be good here often enough to keep putting money in the pot and should fold the turn.... The flop call is ok, standard I would say....I could see merits to a raise, but I like the call....
When mp2 who is a 50yr old woman leads into a paired board multiway on the flop....it could be a king, when she fires the turn this is a 2 at worst... Just fold. And be thankful you didn't get stacked with you aces.....everything after mp2 leads the turn is a fold...

Lolz, looks like a good game. I'm cool with the preflop 3bet sizing; we're basically just trying to prevent ~setmining odds, but thanks to the lol huge open that is pretty simple to do (we could even go slightly smaller just to make sure we get action, but lolz doesn't look like a problem at this table).

I'd probably also just call the flop. I want weaker hands to come along and not blow them out of the pot (hands like KQ and perhaps even AK might make a hero fold). Even though we're committed, I'm not too worried about a 2 outer binking for this price. Doubt we're behind as fullhouses/quads usually don't donk, but even if we are, whatever, we're paying them the monies.

I probably just get the rest in on the turn ASAP. This is an awesome card as KQ just got there (but is behind).

Never folding the river for this price, especially considering we're ahead of all big two pair hands, although it did run out a little ugly against QQ/JJ.

GIwouldhavegottenitinontheturn,butwhateverG

SPR is < 1 on the flop and we haz an overpair. I'm never folding, especially since AK (and especially KQ on the turn) will consider themselves nuttish. Not even too concerned about QQ (QQ donks a K high flop into the raiser?). If we run into KK/2x in an SPR < 1 pot, whatever, imo.

GneverfoldingpostflopG

I'm not sure how the live read comes into play. I like calling the flop just fine. Your hand is not vulnerable and there are no action killing cards on the turn, so it's good to keep all the hands in which are nearly dead. Don't let anyone get away from Kx with a raise. Turn just shove, but it shouldn't matter.

I go $200 pre-flop. With stack sizes a smaller raise is just fine, though. I don't really know much about pre-flop sizing.

Folding at any point in this hand would be a massive mistake. You're literally folding away hundreds of dollars in EV. In a 3-bet pot there are tons more Kx in their ranges than 2x. If they are really loose they might have A2s, which there are only 0-2 combos of depending on our suits. KK/QQ are more worrisome on the turn, but there are more combos of AK/KQ, and QQ may not call the flop, and we are getting sick odds.

Make it at least $200 preflop. The guy who makes it $50 is literally never folding to $200 preflop.

easy GII on the turn. how could you ever fold, thats ridiculously MUBSY. if you are beat take your hat off and say nice hand.

Fold? Are you insane?

Shove turn. I dont know what Hero was waiting for. Where in Gods name do you find games where 4 people put in 50+BBs preflop?

Also, what does "I virtually never trust live reads" mean?

Yea hand is a bit of a clusterf. After I call river old lady flips ATo and my jaw dropped. Sb had KK which now makes sense.

I think lady has K close to 100% of the time and I know crazy guy folded K. So I figured there weren't enough kings left for sb to have KK. That's what I meant by my "read". Maybe it's fuzzy logic. Also wtf pot is bigger than my stack on the flop so just never folding anyway.
I told sb later what I had and he was like "oohhhh you can't get married to pocket aces". Lol.
Very next hand lady opens to 20 and I quietly laugh to myself as I muck AT.

*Never trust live reads meaning I don't look for physical tells or try to predict if someone feels weak or strong. I just try to go by where I'm at in my range vs theirs. In this case I truly thought that there weren't enough kings left for sb to have KK. Not that it would have changed my play in this specific hand. Also I like not raising turn.

I don't know where you guys play, but when a 50yr old Caucasian woman leads twice at a paired board, you fold without at least trips.... If your thinking friend is overcalling....you turbo fold that ****.... Maybe this is a sexist and ageist point of view....and clearly from results not as clear cut everywhere....but when an mid-older woman is barrelling, you fold

You need to read the HH closer. She flatted a 17x open and is leading on a K22 flop. SPR is 1. You are correct that this should never be a bluff from this profile. However, we beat Kx and her range should be heavily AK, maybe KQ.

^again I will respectfully disagree, and I'm sure this is game dependant, but the very few older woman that play are pretty much always really loose passive pre, and hyper nitty post flop.....
This pre-flop raise to 50, op says has been a regular thing, so she will be starting to view this as the norm and will have adjusted her flatting range appropriately....
This.wont have affected the simple rule of thumb I have which is if the omc or the owc start betting 1 pair, or 2 pair with the board is no good.
I dont know how she can end up here with a deuce..where I play if this was the action I would have her squarely on kk and be pretty confident about it.

The old lady had AT. You couldnt be more off.

175 to 225 preflop, you only need 1 call to setup a flop shove. A crazy fish with 1500 and a lady who covers with the same stack flatting the $50 virtually guarantees one of them will call a big re-raise preflop here.

call flop, shove turn.

Nobody is donk-betting here with KK or 22 by the way, and if she had KK, she would have easily back-raised preflop after all the action. 22 flopped quads and would virtually never donk-bet so we can put her on something like AK, KQ, 88+ or a spazz bluff.

I see 50yr+ women play illogically like this all the same. In fact, I'd say I see it more frequently than the style ronrabbit described. Just because someone plays a few hands decently, doesn't automatically mean they have any clue what they are doing.

I did reference this in an earlier post..... No stereotype is 100%, we can't say all 40yr old asains are gamblers, or that all omc's are nits.... At the casinos I play in, every 50yr old woman could be treated in the same vein as an omc nit..... No way they play a10 this way, I can't think of an example where I've seen one bet a draw let alone into a paired board.....
If I therfore have a thinking player in the hand with me who is overcalling, they must understand the strength implied, and must be real strong also....

Against two regs this is an easy jam on the turn,

In this hand I just don't believe we are ever good on this turn, not with what is probably a perceived nit in the hand.

A lot of misdirected attention in this thread. I'd be more concerned about what my "friend is doing in this hand since he normally doesn't want to tangle with me. But as GG mentions above, the SPR is under 1 and you have an overpair. Your money is going in no matter what happens.

As for the tell, it is useless to you. As the owner of this website pointed out years ago, a live tell only has value if it causes you to take a different action than you would have taken based on the betting. If he hadn't shown his neighbor, you would done exactly the same things.

You should never fold this hand given the SPR on the flop. Seriously, we have less than the pot left; there is literally no action that would get me to fold here for less than a pot-sized bet. It's just too likely that 2/3 villains are betting worse for value (AK, KQ) or just spazzing out (as we see here). And it's really hard for villains to have a lot of 2s in their range given the preflop action.

Call on flop is good. It's way-ahead/way-behind. Villains don't even have two-pair outs, since the board is paired.

ronrabbit -- I think the fact that this is an older white lady cuts both ways. It makes it more likely that she has a strong hand given the post-flop action (old ladies don't bet without the nuts); but it makes it far less likely that she has trip twos given the preflop action. And to me the donk bet makes a monster less likely. Is she really donking with kings full? We have to always allot for the possibility of a spazz play at 2/3. The donk makes the spazz more likely.

I'd be nervous about your friend being involved in this hand if he doesn't normally tangle with you. What is his range to cold call 155 preflop from the SB against you? QQ+?

with that said, pot size and board texture dictate we are never folding. I probably play it the same. Might shove turn but it is inconsequential as there are no draws and river shove would be trivial in the event the action got checked to you.

I'll have to second the fact that I have never in my life seen a middle-aged white woman spazz bluff. Especially, given the pot size. Many agro females in their twenties tho.

With that said, lol at ever folding, since woman can easily be doing this with Kx, SPR of 1, maniac table, etc, etc.

It's a Sin to play it this way,lol.

If this is the game I was in,make it bigger pre,post I'd lean towards fold,but everyone was overadjusting to villian...if I wasn't in this game at Stick..I'd probably fold to middle aged lady.