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| Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies |
08-05-2012, 09:42 AM
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#16
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grinder
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Huntington Hills
Posts: 462
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
3b pre.
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08-05-2012, 06:11 PM
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#17
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centurion
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Checking for value.
Posts: 176
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
Not a huge fan of 3-betting the UTG raiser here but, we are deep enough to maneuver. For those in the 3-bet camp, what do we do when we're 4-bet large?
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08-05-2012, 06:53 PM
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#18
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: nyc
Posts: 8,193
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
wow
if he stuffs with AA here and is fine flipping with you for 700bbs, that's literally printing money, I would be so happy he thought jamming is best play.
I would just keep bluff raising him post flop after this hand.
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08-05-2012, 09:41 PM
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#19
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journeyman
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 338
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeBomb
Villian knows I like to raise draws and put pressure on people and that I am probably never doing this with an OP. He doesn't seem too concerned about getting value, but then again I don't really know what hands I would raise/fold here, he knows I am sticky so I don't think it would be too ridiculous for him to have 99 since it is really no different than AA here, but I highly doubt he could have a fd other than maybe 67.
Anyways, of course I called. There was tons of money on the table and the thought of playing a 10k+ pot with one of the other idiots was too much to pass up, plus I had rebuys. If I didn't I think I would fold and cry myself to sleep.
I just hate the idea that there isn't really another way to play this hand this deep, I guess I have to 3-bet pre or I am stuck flipping for 7k.
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Results?
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08-05-2012, 11:02 PM
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#20
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veteran
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: inyahead
Posts: 2,819
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeBomb
How is it different if I never have 1010-AA. The only difference is AA which could have diamond blocker and has a gutshot. Doesn't matter if villian has 99 or AA, either I am drawing or I have it and he is smoked not much difference in the hands.
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15 outs twice vs 9 outs twice?
No big deal though
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08-06-2012, 11:15 AM
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#21
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adept
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 917
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
Quote:
Originally Posted by RadioActive1
15 outs twice vs 9 outs twice?
No big deal though
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My point was for villian to have 99 or AA it is basicly the same for him, since I am pretty much only going to have draws which are basicly even money or sets/straights. I never have an overpair and villian knows this, therefore he is jamming all overpairs or none of them. For me to be against 99 or AA with my hand yes it is a bit different, I probably just should have used KK as an example instead of AA. He is never folding 99 but jamming a higher pp.
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08-06-2012, 11:18 AM
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#22
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adept
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 917
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
Quote:
Originally Posted by franklin58
Results?
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I called, villian shows ak and we chop  Not sure how hand plays if I 3-bet pre, pretty sure he just 4-bets and I fold, although this deep he may just call and then probably c/fold flop,
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08-07-2012, 12:14 AM
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#23
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 6g1p
Posts: 9,335
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeBomb
I called, villian shows ak and we chop  Not sure how hand plays if I 3-bet pre, pretty sure he just 4-bets and I fold, although this deep he may just call and then probably c/fold flop,
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lol he jams AK haha, pretty terrible
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08-07-2012, 12:30 AM
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#24
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adept
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 917
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
Quote:
Originally Posted by mg0698
lol he jams AK haha, pretty terrible
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Not so funny if I lost a 7k pot to ak high. So do I need to start flatting big pairs in this spot just to raise boards like this? Or is it actually worth it to flat the flop with a hand like mine? I am kinda confused how to counter this, maybe I am overthinking and this is just one of those weird spots that doesn't come up too often and is only marginaly unprofitable and there is no need to change how I play.
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08-07-2012, 01:14 AM
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#25
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journeyman
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 261
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeBomb
Not so funny if I lost a 7k pot to ak high. So do I need to start flatting big pairs in this spot just to raise boards like this? Or is it actually worth it to flat the flop with a hand like mine? I am kinda confused how to counter this, maybe I am overthinking and this is just one of those weird spots that doesn't come up too often and is only marginaly unprofitable and there is no need to change how I play.
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When you flat the flop, what card do you ever expect to get paid on when he has any overpair? I think you should always be happy to get it in here and I think villain only shoved on you due to your image.
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08-07-2012, 08:59 AM
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#26
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Panic Station
Posts: 11,862
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
You're deep enough to CIB and then 4bai if he is capable of spaz 3betting a normal amount instead of his retarded shove. Which it seems like he is. Plus CIB has fun meta ramifications that **** with his head. Not saying that's optimal (it's not), just throwing that out there as another option.
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08-07-2012, 01:27 PM
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#27
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: beantown
Posts: 5,150
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeBomb
I called, villian shows ak and we chop  Not sure how hand plays if I 3-bet pre, pretty sure he just 4-bets and I fold, although this deep he may just call and then probably c/fold flop,
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeBomb
Not so funny if I lost a 7k pot to ak high. So do I need to start flatting big pairs in this spot just to raise boards like this? Or is it actually worth it to flat the flop with a hand like mine? I am kinda confused how to counter this, maybe I am overthinking and this is just one of those weird spots that doesn't come up too often and is only marginaly unprofitable and there is no need to change how I play.
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I think if you raise, its obv with the intention of calling a shove (if he does that). raise/folding that equity just seems "stupid" to me.... i don't know how else to put it.
preflop - squeezing is great here, imo. I'd do it a lot for the following reasons: 1) just because a guy is in EP and is a decent player doesn't mean his opening range is insanely tight. maybe i play in different games, but i've def played with winning players who open wide enough in EP that AQ is well ahead of their range. 2) if you get 4b, probably fold... even if you are 4b bluffed its not that often, 3) the cold callers are probably just dead money... very few people are tricky enough to flat AK/KK+ with the intention of re-squeezing a squeezer. so they probably have a typical IO type cold-calling range thats pretty easy to play against. However, flatting is fine too! Pre-flop play really becomes less and less relevant when stacks get deeper and deeper.
calling flop - i think calling is fine too. it can also balance the times when you might flat your mid pairs or random floats that intend on bluffing completed FD. However, I think, if you raise, you should play it like you would if you flopped the nuts (so barrel off, usually). If you think villain will just call flop you can make the sizing on the flop smaller, so that you can make a bet on the turn, and then also have money left for a big enough bet on the river. Another option is making a bigger raise to like 800 OTF (which would be better imo if you want to either i) just get it in on the flop or ii) take a free one on the turn) that way you get more FE.
Anyway, I honestly think you played it fine. Flatting pre is fine, raising flop is fine, and obv not fold when shipped on (although i'd probably make a sad face when calling it off. lol) Villain played it so much worse its insane!!!!
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08-07-2012, 02:13 PM
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#28
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adept
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 917
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
Quote:
Originally Posted by masaraksh
I think if you raise, its obv with the intention of calling a shove (if he does that). raise/folding that equity just seems "stupid" to me.... i don't know how else to put it.
preflop - squeezing is great here, imo. I'd do it a lot for the following reasons: 1) just because a guy is in EP and is a decent player doesn't mean his opening range is insanely tight. maybe i play in different games, but i've def played with winning players who open wide enough in EP that AQ is well ahead of their range. 2) if you get 4b, probably fold... even if you are 4b bluffed its not that often, 3) the cold callers are probably just dead money... very few people are tricky enough to flat AK/KK+ with the intention of re-squeezing a squeezer. so they probably have a typical IO type cold-calling range thats pretty easy to play against. However, flatting is fine too! Pre-flop play really becomes less and less relevant when stacks get deeper and deeper.
calling flop - i think calling is fine too. it can also balance the times when you might flat your mid pairs or random floats that intend on bluffing completed FD. However, I think, if you raise, you should play it like you would if you flopped the nuts (so barrel off, usually). If you think villain will just call flop you can make the sizing on the flop smaller, so that you can make a bet on the turn, and then also have money left for a big enough bet on the river. Another option is making a bigger raise to like 800 OTF (which would be better imo if you want to either i) just get it in on the flop or ii) take a free one on the turn) that way you get more FE.
Anyway, I honestly think you played it fine. Flatting pre is fine, raising flop is fine, and obv not fold when shipped on (although i'd probably make a sad face when calling it off. lol) Villain played it so much worse its insane!!!!
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What I am wondering is if villian really played it badly? Or does he just know me well enough that I almost always have a draw there and ak is ahead of almost all my draws. His play seems suicidal, but correct given my hand. Do I need to change anything against specific opponent or does it not really matter.
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08-07-2012, 04:01 PM
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#29
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old hand
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,858
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeBomb
What I am wondering is if villian really played it badly? Or does he just know me well enough that I almost always have a draw there and ak is ahead of almost all my draws. His play seems suicidal, but correct given my hand. Do I need to change anything against specific opponent or does it not really matter.
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Jamming AK is ridiculously bad there unless you you have tons of bare 5x/air/weak flushdraws that you're going to fold to his shove, so just raise those hand less here and punish him for jamming tons of money in in a bad spot.
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08-07-2012, 04:46 PM
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#30
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Panic Station
Posts: 11,862
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Re: 5/10 nl I flop big and deep
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeBomb
Do I need to change anything against specific opponent or does it not really matter.
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As long as you're raising your sets, straights (and 2pairs if you ever have them), then no, he played it bad and that's it.
You probably do have a lot of draws in your range, but you should also have 9 sets and probably at least 4 straights in there too (being in late position and all) that he's almost dead against.
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