Villain 1 is LAG player running hot and covers me. I made an ill-advised river bluff on him previously in the session where he 3bet really small OOP pre, double barreled A86rK, and check snapcalled 5 river with AK vs my 75s.

Other villain is newer to the game but clearly a fish with about 1200 stack.

LAG raises to 30 HJ, button calls, fish calls SB, I call 8c7c in BB (stack 3600ish).

Flop 654 two diamonds. Fish donks 80, I just call. LAG makes it 200, button folds, fish calls. I make it 1080. LAG thinks for a bit and calls. Fish shoves for like 50 more and we obviously both call. We are 2400 deep going into a dry side pot.

Turn 5o. What is the plan?

Not only interested in the turn, as the flop play is also interesting/suspect (maybe more so than the turn). I feel like calling/raising the donk bet is close, and I'm probably about equally likely to do either tbh. Then sizing is possibly an issue on the backraise. Maybe I could go small? This lets LAG maximally leverage his position, but also allows me to jam if the fish decides to shove. Maybe I could go even bigger? I don't think calling the raise is a valid option, but maybe someone can make a case for it...


I won't post results, but here is my thought process on the turn: LAG's range should be basically sets and flush draws. Shoving gets a flush draw off, but this only matters if 1) he gets there AND 2) all-in guy does not have a flush draw or full house since I'd lose to him anyway if I got LAG off a flush draw. It would be suicide for LAG to bluff into this dry pot, so I'm not too worried about getting blown off my hand. For this reason, I think both shove and check/call off are bad. Interested for opinions that differ from this...

To me it comes down to check/fold or bet like 800 or so. Betting 800 is probably better than jamming if I have 66/55 anyway. It's tough for a flush draw to call, given that he may be drawing dead, and even if he does call I'm correctly charging him for his draw (relative to a check) anyway. Drawbacks are that I do lose an extra 800 when LAG is full, and again getting him off a flush draw is only relevant the (imo rare) times when he both hits and I still beat the other allin player.

Check/fold, 800/fold, or can you make a case for another play? Oh, and if checking, what are we doing vs a bet of 800?

We need more info on the villain other than LAG and that he snapped you off with the top of his range a while ago.

In a vacuum, against a "typical" LAG, it would be stupid for LAG to bluff into the dry side pot, but that doesn't mean he won't. I'd go for c/call here, for any size bet including all in. You have less than 1 PSB left and I'm not folding the nut straight here. He can easily be trying to blow you off your draw with his big overpair, so I'm never folding here unless there's more I don't know about this villain.

Guy is a younger Euro, unknown to me other than the 2 hours of decent run-good that he's been at my table.

I guess that I don't really think overpairs should be a huge part of his range given this action. They certainly have to be heavily discounted. Now he has to 1) have that part of his range and 2) try to blow me off my flush draw when he is disincentivized from doing so for the same reasons I didn't want to shove. He has to have the best hand or get me to fold, and if I fold he still needs to beat the allin player.

It's not out of the realm of possibility for him to make the play that you describe, but I don't really think it's good for him to take that line, and given that it's a smaller part of his range going into the turn imo AND he often checks behind when he does have that hand, I'm comfortable folding getting 2.4:1 if I check and he shoves.

I think the flop decision is really interesting. I think there is bound to be a large gap between the EV of making it ~650 (allowing fish to re-open) and the next viable size. What I mean is that there's no way making it like 650-850 could possibly be good because you give up too much in not allowing for the re-open. That said, I'm really not sure 650 is a dominant option. It's got to be the easiest to balance and the most likely to induce action, but it might just be that making it 1k gets more value overall.

As for the turn, I'm inclined to think that your hand is good here very frequently. Lag will have far more flush draws than sets here, and could even have worse made hands. 73s/32s/64s are possible. If he's kind of bad, 88+ are also possible. I just don't think you can check/fold. If he has a worse made hand he might be inclined to bet it in hopes that you fold a better hand and he gets to play for a big part of the main pot vs the fish.

I also don't like shove because your range is nutty enough here that you don't need to bet nearly that much to put a flush draw in a bad spot. Your range can have boats, so I would tend to bet 800 and probably fold to a shove. If he calls I would check call the river I guess. It is hard for lags to have boats.

Look at his flop sizing - he makes it 120 more into a pot of that size with a set on a super wet board against a fish leading? I really doubt it. I think he is almost always behind on the turn so I would bet around 1/3 pot and fold to a shove. Still want to protect my hand in case the fishy player does not have full house which is definitely possible. If the lag called your flop 3bet fairly quickly then he is even less likely to have a set which I already think is almost never the case in this spot.

Probably x/f?

c/f or 1/3 pot/f. Absolutely not c/c:ing anything bigger than 1/3 if he has half a brain.

C/f river. Turn is a bet fold. I think you raised too much on the flop. Finally, I'd fold pre OOP vs. a lag. Actually a really bad hand to flat with vs. a lag.

I really like seeing a turn before we bomb oop.

This spot is really gross as the all in probably hit his boat and your remaining villain is probably on a combo draw. I don't see how betting 800 is good. I'd say bet 1500 or give him a free one.

did you expect him to raise when you just flatted the fish's 80?

How is this a gross turn spot? Because you don't have the nuts and there is a dry spot?

Easiest b/c ever

When playing @300BB deep and OOP...I'd prefer to flat the $200 with this much action on a draw heavy board (keeps your hand disguised as well). Yeah you have the nuts right here but you won't be able to get it-in here and there's too many cards that can fall on turn to make this a tough decision for you with deep stacks OOP. Exercise some pot control here....

As played, you put yourself in a really tough spot. Have a hard time thinking he's calling such a big raise with a flush draw. More likely a LAG would be coming over the top of you here with a big flush draw or combo flush draw to maximize fold equity and see both streets. Your hand is essentially face up in this spot IMO.

You put yourself in a bad spot simply....if he has a boat, he's simply flatting a turn bet and you're still in a bad spot on river. Yeah if you bet,a flush draw folds out but still only 4 to 1 on him catching on river. I check....and hate myself for bloating the pot on flop.

If you had $1k-$2k in front of you....your line would have been fine.

I would have raised fish to 280, but having not done that I'd 3 bet the 200 to 600. As played 1k on turn and either ship river or induce if you think he's more likely to bluff (which I don't).

Does anyone else like flatting the flop to "cap" our perceived range so we can gii on safe turns and pot control when the board pairs or the fd comes in?

Not oop against this many players. Unless you wanted to induce original raiser in which case your 3bet is too big.

I like flatting the donk bet, then back raising. Back raising to $650 would have been prefect, *IF it worked out that the LAG flats and the donk better shoves and it opens up the betting again. But long term, I think betting $1080 or as much as you think LAG will call is more +EV.

So the pot is $3510 OTT and we have $2,500 left.

So you don't have the nuts OTT anymore. Big deal, the LAG could have so many draws; I'm betting OTT to charge all draws. The problem is how much to leave behind, because I would hate to bet $1000-$1,500 OTT leaving $1000+ behind, and allowing the LAG to keep $1000 if his draw misses, and I'd hate to fold the best hand if the flush hits OTR and hero checks and the LAG decides to bluff us. Imagine how nasty that would be to fold for $1,500 into $5,510 and have the LAG turn over 76

So I like shipping OTT, I guess we could bet $1,500 OTT then $1,000 OTR. I just think shipping is best.