this is my second orbit at the table, so reads are very limited

hero(2100): young + backpack, came in with 1700ish (max 2k) and got 3 streets vs whale with tpmk on somewhat connected board after opening ATo in HJ in first orbit but havent done anything else noteworthy. have played here some but am not a reg and havent played w/ V before that i remember; i think i sat down and said hi to some other regs who i have played with before.

V (~6k): young asian who i am fairly certain plays higher regularly and is a reg/pro, although i dont know much other than that at this point. hasnt done anything noteworthy, i think he pfr'd once since i sat down and didnt show down.

pre: i open QsQh UTG to 35, one fold, V makes it 135 after short deliberation, folds to me and i call.

flop (285) Ts7s4x i check, V bets 150, i call

turn (585) 7x i check, V bets 410, i call

river (1405) 4s i check, V jams for my remaining 1400, hero ?

thoughts on all streets appreciated. if you are folding at some point, which hands are you calling with instead?

I fold I think. What was your timing on the turn, and what was villain's timing on river?

i'd say i took about 45 seconds on the turn, and he took about the same on the river. thats obv not exact, but both were amounts of time that were neither very quick nor tanks, and seemed to allow for at least some deliberation

Eh that's a tough one. Board double pairing and flush comes in makes me want to call. Most of the young Asians where I play are pretty tight but this would be a spot they would jam light.

What pos is v? If he is late I'm def calling.

he was UTG+2 and we were 8 handed

Any live tells while you were contemplating on the river? Was he sipping a drink or totally stiff?

Its close but i lean towards a fold because we are readless, and because you look so strong after raise/calling pre and already calling two pot sized bets. Not to mention the flush comes in which hits your range more than his (i.e. wouldn't be smart for him to bluff shove into it)

I dont think the double pairing hits either player's range particularly hard.

All that said, pot sized bets are pretty polarized from a readless, GTO perspective. And he is a young asian. Can't speak for above posters experience, but I've never met a young asian who isn't aggressive and usually plays loose. Something like a strong live tell could make the difference for me. Otherwise i save my chips for a fatter equity spot.

Hey this hand looks familiar

I would now say that this seems super close to me to the point where I feel indifferent to calling QQ w/ Qs blocker and fold QQ without the blocker and everything worse. Calling KK+ for sure.

This might be a fold but if I went into the tank I'm pretty sure I would be too curious and would have to see it. Pretty rare to find someone who will 3 barrel this board for value with any thing less then the nuts (esp a potsized river shove.) I think I would be more likely to fold to a smaller bet. If he bet 500 I'd probably fold and feel pretty good about it.

Think KK+ is a pretty trivial jam on the end here in villains shoes. I'd expect any reasonably competent pro to be jamming for value much wider than the nuts here.

Fwiw, V's sizing ott and the resulting psb/shove otr are both examples of perfect sizing vs a perceived H's strong range.

I probably have to pay him off.

he was comfortable but sitting still - considering that i thought he was a pro who regularly plays higher, i wouldn't expect him to be uncomfortable with the spot either way and i would be unlikely to make any significant strategic adjustments based on live tells after just one orbit

if you believe him to be loose and aggressive, this is more of a reason to call, no?

i mostly agree with this although i think KK gets checked back sometimes because although he rarely loses, he also may think he rarely/never gets a jam called by worse

would you be folding QsQx and mainly be calling with whatever slowplayed TT/AA/KK you have? besides the fact that there aren't many combos available of this after pre (if any of AA/KK), does the fact that those also block some of his AK bluffs mitigate the advantages in your opinion, or do you think he's mainly bluffing with non-AK hands/not at all?

how much KK+ do you even get to this spot with though? certainly depends on what your default assumptions about his 3b pre range is in this spot, but i'd guess that most people don't have much KK+ available to call with here

kind of curious about your thoughts re: what AAismyfriend said about KK+ being a trivial jam here

related, how often do you think he gets to the river with flushes/boats? im interested what you would think this players 3b range pre loosely looks like

if hero's range is perceived to be strong (relatively), why would V choose large bet sizes? when you say you have to pay him off, are you saying that he is often bluffing/valuebetting worse? this doesnt seem consistent to me with the idea that my range is perceived to be strong here (although i don't think it is)

If I'm going off the limited info you have I begrudgingly call river. We are just too far up in our range to fold. You can argue that Tx is a better bluffcatcher but he probably flats TT pre a lot here, and he can be shoving QQ for value.

Yes, it looks to me like V is trying to win the pot by betting. QQ should have plenty of value against his range -- Hero loses to KK+ and that's about it -- which is only a small part of V's range.

To me, his sizing just screams value, and I'm giving V credit for doing it on purpose (whether or not he has value).

With these positions I'm usually flatting KK since it seems unprofitable to have a 4bet bluffing range and QQ probably finds a fold at some point if we 4bet. AA idk probably 4betting that but maybe flatting if I thought my image was nitty wrt playing big pots.

At this stack depth, trying to get a perceived nit backpack grinder to fold an over pair in a 3b pot is not a good use of chips.

Most perceived nitty backpack grinders will have an extremely transparent c3b oop from EP. Hero reps exactly what he has and if villain is a winner he'll know that / reasoning for a lighter 3b pre.

Op said he plays higher. Most players that play down will 3b lighter. I wouldn't discount TT or even some 7x.

V should be shoving QQ+. He also has a lot of flush combos which hero does not.

i guess youre just assuming that young+backpack=nit until proven otherwise? we are unknown to each other, and imo the orbit that ive been here i have provided some weak evidence that i am not a nit. if he perceives me to be a nit, is it really a good spot for him to 3b particularly light against my UTG open with a bunch of players to act behind? i agree that i am perceived to have mainly 1p on the river.

also, if you think he has a lot of flush combos, then he will have 3x as many of the non-flush variety of those hands. depending on which types of suited hands you give him (ie sc vs 1 gap vs 2 gap), he will have flopped a different number of draws/pairs/overs which can both all be played differently and affect his river range significantly

can you clarify the bolded? seems to imply the opposite to me.

any image for nittyness in big pots would be a stereotype/population read since we dont have history - how often would you flat AA readless here?

Seems like a fold. V has a decent number of combos for value, and I don't think he's at all polarized. You're high up in your range but it's face up and V probably includes KK in your range. Imo 3 barrel bluffing frequency is super low in spots against unknowns for 400+ bb pots. Like he should be spewing with the whale back and forth, not trying to move a young backpack wearing grinder off the top of his range.

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Yeah my reasoning there wasn't the best so let me correct that. Basically against a polarized 3bet range of QQ+, AK, and bluffs with suited Ax and connectors it makes sense, when defending by 4betting, to have a polarized 4bet range of AA and bluffs. If V isn't stacking off w/ QQ in spots where he should then it would be too thin to 4bet KK for value and thus it has more value just flatting the 3bet.

Wrt flatting AA I don't know the typical 5/10 reg's tendencies so I'm not sure how often a typical 5/10 reg has a 4bet bluff here but what I do know is that if they're perceived to not have any bluffs when 4betting then flatting AA has more value since our perceived 4betting range would be narrowed to AA/KK and V can play pretty easily against that.

Anyone that brings a backpack to play poker is some sort of nit/ grinder/ vibe killer. There's no reason to bring one.

It doesn't matter how good or bad you think 3b lighter is. Whatever small mistake he's making pre this player thinks he can more than make up for it post.

Highly doubt v would be 3betting you light and then barrel off with all his air considering your hand is face up and he has close to zero fold equity

moderately absurd statement, but okay. do you think every young person views backpack wearers as nits? also just fyi backpacks are used to carry things
you can read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backpack

im not trying to figure out whether i would 3b in that spot, im asking what other people think his 3b range generally looks like. also, preflop analysis incorporates postflop results, so that statement doesnt make much sense.

why do you think he has zero fold equity? you think i should just explo fold everything here?