5/10 facing the old man's 10 bb raise - Page 2 - Medium High Stakes Full Ring Poker

grenzen · 05-22-2012, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaraksh

dude, calling is the worst and probably nets you the very little information as well..... if you wanna be a nit and "lower variance" then just fold (but at that point you might as well just find a smaller game)

3betting and getting it in for 100 bigs here will not only probably be +EV it will give you the most information (assuming he doesn't just show up with KK+ here, in which case you don't really learn to much about his play since you ran into the top of his range). If you don't run into KK+ then you learn about how he reacts to 3bets pre and post flop with his weaker holdings, how light he is willing to stack off, we learn at what point a bet becomes meaningful to him, etc.

3b/call (obv) to 310 and pot all flop is optimal imo. this all assumes that BTN folds pre (if he flats be more likely to play more 'straight up')

btw, given the player type, these guys show up with 88-JJ here a bunch. these guys generally suck post-flop with these hands and its already obvious they suck pre (limping all positions and all that)

Ya right. Just call. Id like to see your bankroll after potting 100 bb every suited AK all night. Whats the point anyway, you scoop a few c-notes if everyone folds.

3bet to 310 is a lot more sane. WhTs with all the thunder geez dude.

eggspert · 05-23-2012, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaraksh

dude, calling is the worst and probably nets you the very little information as well..... if you wanna be a nit and "lower variance" then just fold (but at that point you might as well just find a smaller game)

3betting and getting it in for 100 bigs here will not only probably be +EV it will give you the most information (assuming he doesn't just show up with KK+ here, in which case you don't really learn to much about his play since you ran into the top of his range). If you don't run into KK+ then you learn about how he reacts to 3bets pre and post flop with his weaker holdings, how light he is willing to stack off, we learn at what point a bet becomes meaningful to him, etc.

3b/call (obv) to 310 and pot all flop is optimal imo. this all assumes that BTN folds pre (if he flats be more likely to play more 'straight up')

btw, given the player type, these guys show up with 88-JJ here a bunch. these guys generally suck post-flop with these hands and its already obvious they suck pre (limping all positions and all that)

When I said I was hoping to get information, I was referring specifically to his 10x cutoff opening range. I think we are more likely to get to showdown (and to do so cheaper) if we just call. I would want to see him do this with hands we dominate before I was confident in 3bet/calling. If his range is medium to strong pairs and maybe a few AK or AQs, it doesn't seem like 3betting and then calling shoves or potting all flops shows a very good profit.

I agree there is a lot to be learned from 3betting as well, but I'm just not convinced there is much of a profit there until I see someone doing this with a hand we dominate. There might be some profit there, but it seems pretty marginal.

masaraksh · 05-23-2012, 01:48 PM

^ i disagree with your statement that "we are more likely to get to showdown (and do so cheaper) if we just call"

i dunno where you play but i highly doubt a 3-way raised pot is just gonna get checked down till the river and everyone will just flip their cards. what if flop has no A or K, you just check/fold? what information did we get there? the fact that he'll c-bet? we don't even know what he has? and if we do flop TPTK? what do we learn, not much if we don't get to showdown.

i mean, we're only 100 bigs deep, our hand has really good equity against his range. we can squeeze out the BTN who's probably dead money since its unlikely he's trapping with better. and you'd be surprised, we actually have decent fold equity in this spot too.

eggspert · 05-23-2012, 07:19 PM

^ I see your point about likelihood of getting to showdown. I'm not sure I'm conveying my point on that very clearly. Let me table that for a second and come back to it.

I disagree with your statement "our hand has really good equity against his range". What do you think is a reasonable estimate of his range? I'm thinking 10's+, AK, and maybe AQ. We're a dog against that range, even with $100 dead (especially if you weight a little heavier towards AA and KK by taking out a few 10's, J's, AQ combos).

So my point is, I want to see evidence that he is opening to an unusual size like this with things we dominate to be confident "our hand has really good equity against his range". So, back to my first point, it's not so much the likelihood we get to showdown, but rather the sequence. I need to first see he isn't necessarily super strong before I'm willing to commit 100bb preflop.

AintNoLimit · 05-24-2012, 05:35 AM

10x open raises.....gotta love live poker. This screams TT and everything that looks like it.

I would squeeze to $500 and expect to fold out 99 TT and sometimes JJ from V1. V2 im not really worried about since this squeeze size forces V2 to really to have a hand he will get it in with. He wont have that enuff, so there u have it.

My opinion folding is as weak a play as exists, and calling isnt much better. If V1 was a nit, who makes rediculous large raises only with his biggest pairs----then ok, fold. But i dont find guys that tight around too often.

AAismyfriend · 05-24-2012, 10:56 AM

yea 500 seems good, or just go all in.

plz fold · 05-24-2012, 11:10 AM

If I'm gonna 3bet here I think I just stick in 100bbs and get a full board vs his TT/JJ/QQ. A lot of times old men accidently own me by flatting 50% of their stack pre with a PP and then folding when the A or K hits and I have AK. If he's not laying down his PP pre then isn't it better to make him commit all the monies before the obv scare cards come out? Shoving for stacks might also have slightly more FE too.

sysmex12 · 05-25-2012, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plz fold

If I'm gonna 3bet here I think I just stick in 100bbs and get a full board vs his TT/JJ/QQ. A lot of times old men accidently own me by flatting 50% of their stack pre with a PP and then folding when the A or K hits and I have AK. If he's not laying down his PP pre then isn't it better to make him commit all the monies before the obv scare cards come out? Shoving for stacks might also have slightly more FE too.

Since you're first to act post flop, can't you just 3 bet to like 400 pre, and then shove any flop? Essentially you would be seeing all 5 cards and maybe get some folds from mid pocket pairs if the flop comes with an over besides an A or K.

plz fold · 05-25-2012, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sysmex12

Since you're first to act post flop, can't you just 3 bet to like 400 pre, and then shove any flop? Essentially you would be seeing all 5 cards and maybe get some folds from mid pocket pairs if the flop comes with an over besides an A or K.

Mb if the old man has a mid PP you can get him to fold but that raise screams 99-JJ to me which probably aren't calling 50% of stacks pre and folding on a J high flop IME. They will snap fold when an A or K hits though and that lets them freeroll you the times you do have AK.