fold pre.

bet flop is okay. def bet turn after flop checks around

as played, call river

I'd like a better idea as to UTG's limping range, but can't see how this is ever a call.

It's pretty straightforward- 24,34 (probably not c/c two pair), 36, 46 we beat

68, j8, q8, qj, aj, aq, a2, a3, a4, a6, a8 we lose to.

Seems pretty reasonable to assume because of current game dynamics he'd be limping a lot of this range- even the stronger portion- and playing it similarily to how he did given the way action went.

He's never bluffing in this spot either. As played fold, fold, fold, and don't forget to fold.

Oh, and FOLD PRE. Not a lot of room for profit up front with a hand like this, especially with what is likely to happen behind you- he's gonna raise and you are going to be in a cluster-fudge pack after everyone flats to try to nut-mine.

You sir, are brilliant.

Unless you really have the ability read people very well, don't put yourself in these situations. Play within your capabilities.

without reading all the threads(bc im sure this has been said) a plan to limp call 57 suited pre OOP against a player that is certain to raise blind seems -EV and pretty bad.

There is no way you are good here 1 in 4.25 times. This guy isn't bluffing into 5 players and there are no combos of smaller flushes that he limps UTG. He's also never shoving worse for value. On a less important note you still have four undefined hands behind you--but even if I was closing the action it's still a snap fold. Not even close unless there is some sort of weird short term tilting dynamic with this guy.

^^^This!

I'm an old man and let me tell you when I open shove for $800 in this position I hope the whole world calls me.

Hi LA's i've been thinking about this comment for a while and I'm sorry i still don't understand, can you explain some more?

- What exactly is the new information you are talking about? (ie what conclusions are you drawing and why)
- Why does this information make it correct to call with a flush DRAW, but fold with a MADE flush?

it's an honest question, not trying to argue.

imagine you make a draw on the river then your opponent bets and shows you his hand and you see you were drawing dead. would you fold?

Im going to be pretty douchey and cryptic here because this concept and the concept of protecting equity are the two most misunderstood/maligned concepts on 2p2. this thread is a terrific read for more on the subject of equity protection ... http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-5-nl-1150094/

For more on the subject at hand look up threads that discuss "calling an audible"

You learn that the old guys range consists of primarily higher flushes when he open shoves the river into like 5 people. You do horribly against his range now. It sucks to get there and then fold but it seems like the right play here.

Ultimately, fold pre; this situation sucked as soon as the pot got bloated pre, like you thought it would

Got it, thanks.

So for this particular hand to be good, we need to hit twice on the river:
1) make our flush or our straight
2) none of our opponents show so much strength that we can conclude we're >80% chance against the nuts

and the lesson for donkeys like me is: throw away my weak draws when several players have shown a passive interest in the pot.

turn is either a bet out or a fold after everyone calls. your hearts are definitely not going to be good enough for this to be profitable.

river is a fold. guy puts it all in into 5 other people. not to mention even if he is bluffing there are people behind you that could have better.

i dont agree w/ those saying that turn is a fold. im getting sick odds to call closing the action (dont even need to make any more money on river if i do hit to make it profitable assuming hearts are good) and i think its pretty easy to figure out if my hearts arent good depending on the action on river.

anyways, i ended up folding and somehow a superstar asian reg who likes winning lapc tournies called and the old guys 24hh was good.

I'm trying to discern: did the old man play this hand well, or did he just get lucky? Clearly he wasn't worried about other players having flushes.

i think the best line for him would be to ck/fold river. but then again if hes not going to c/f once he makes his hand i dont think its terrible for him to just want to get someone to call him w/ a straight/2pair/set since he only had a bit over 800 left. as it turned out he accomplished this.

obv its terrible for him to call pre w/ his stack size and position.

your assumption that hearts are good often enough is wrong. out of 5 people who call that turn the likelihood of them having hearts is high and since you have a 7 high draw the likelihood that they have a better flush draw is very high.

this was the one scenario where it worked out for you, but actually it didn't because someone thinking they had a better hand "bluffed" you out, even though you hit your draw. Even in this rare case where someone had a worse draw, you still misplayed your hand.

I think this shows you why it's a fold.