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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 04-18-2017, 10:37 AM   #1
pocketzeroes
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5/10 - AK all in pre

Hero's fairly new to table (less than an hour). Hasn't yet 3bet. Down to 1700 from 2k after losing a few small hands. The only hand I showed down was where I called (laggy) button raise from BB with AT after SB flat, and donk led a KJx flop, and was called by PFR. Gave up/checked through river, and lost to JQ.

No real reads on villain. Saw him raise pre, bet post a couple times and take it down. 20s/30s white guy. Seems like a decent player, 4k+. The table as a whole has been fairly active in 3bets pre, but haven't seen any 4bets yet.

Villain opens MP to $35. HJ calls. Hero 3! To 110 on button with AK. Villain 4! to 290. Hero 5! to 610. Villain shoves. Hero calls.

I didn't like flatting the 4bet - thought about folding. Instead I 5bet small hoping villain either had some bluffs or could make a big laydown - planned to fold to a shove, but called anyway...

Thoughts?

Last edited by pocketzeroes; 04-18-2017 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 04-18-2017, 11:23 AM   #2
rbenuck4
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Re: 5/10 - AK all in pre

In live settings, it's not always a good idea to get 170BB in preflop with AK. You are practically never ahead in these situations, and are often way behind AA or KK even though you have blockers to those. The best you can hope for realistically is being up against QQ or AK. I would've flatted the 4! and seen a flop. People just don't have 6! bluffing ranges live.
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Old 04-18-2017, 11:50 AM   #3
pocketzeroes
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Re: 5/10 - AK all in pre

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Originally Posted by rbenuck4 View Post
In live settings, it's not always a good idea to get 170BB in preflop with AK. You are practically never ahead in these situations, and are often way behind AA or KK even though you have blockers to those. The best you can hope for realistically is being up against QQ or AK. I would've flatted the 4! and seen a flop. People just don't have 6! bluffing ranges live.

Yeah, I assumed a shove is very heavily skewed towards KK+, especially with no history. So is a 5bet/fold terrible in this situation? Even getting over 2 to 1 on a call?

I feel like it's hard to make a flat profitable, even though I have position, and even if I'm giving villain a mixed range with hands including premiums as well as stuff like Axs and medium PPs.

The other option is to just fold to a 4-bet until I have reason to believe that villain has bluffs in his 4-bet range.
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Old 04-18-2017, 12:30 PM   #4
rbenuck4
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Re: 5/10 - AK all in pre

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Originally Posted by pocketzeroes View Post
Yeah, I assumed a shove is very heavily skewed towards KK+, especially with no history. So is a 5bet/fold terrible in this situation? Even getting over 2 to 1 on a call?

I feel like it's hard to make a flat profitable, even though I have position, and even if I'm giving villain a mixed range with hands including premiums as well as stuff like Axs and medium PPs.

The other option is to just fold to a 4-bet until I have reason to believe that villain has bluffs in his 4-bet range.
As long as you sometimes flat with your KK and AA, I'm fine with flatting a few hands to his 4!. I think your hand is too strong to fold to his 4 bet, especially with you having position and still a decently high SPR left to go.
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Old 04-18-2017, 12:42 PM   #5
pocketzeroes
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Re: 5/10 - AK all in pre

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As long as you sometimes flat with your KK and AA, I'm fine with flatting a few hands to his 4!. I think your hand is too strong to fold to his 4 bet, especially with you having position and still a decently high SPR left to go.
I think I'm 5! AA small (same sizing ~610) 100% of the time, planning to massage stacks in post with small flop bet (1/3 pot or less).

I'd probably flat with KK a lot because I don't exactly feel great about being jammed on and no blockers to AA, and I can usually call/raise a bet otf and feel good about it while I think I just have to fold AK otf most of the time.
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Old 04-18-2017, 03:50 PM   #6
bigcountry85
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Re: 5/10 - AK all in pre

Its hard to do but I think I am folding after the 5!. Realistically, AK is dominated in that scenario a large majority of the time. I don't mind the 5! but youll have to follow that same line with AA and KK occasionally and the same goes for flatting the 4!.
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Old 04-18-2017, 04:58 PM   #7
lolposting2016
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Re: 5/10 - AK all in pre

call the 4b
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Old 04-19-2017, 03:11 AM   #8
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Re: 5/10 - AK all in pre

I think this deep with no real history or reads aside from the fact that no one is 4betting, you're much better off calling the 4b and playing a flop than you are doing anything else once you 3b and face the 4b.

I think that fold to the 4b/don't tell anyone is a better option than both 5b/fold and 5b/call.
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Old 04-19-2017, 02:34 PM   #9
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Re: 5/10 - AK all in pre

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Originally Posted by rbenuck4 View Post
As long as you sometimes flat with your KK and AA, I'm fine with flatting a few hands to his 4!. I think your hand is too strong to fold to his 4 bet, especially with you having position and still a decently high SPR left to go.
2.9x is a decently high SPR? We make no money when villain has QQ- and we flop an A/K, and we have RIO and get felted by AA/KK when we flop a pair.

So where's the upside?
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:06 PM   #10
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Re: 5/10 - AK all in pre

Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketzeroes View Post
Hero's fairly new to table (less than an hour). Hasn't yet 3bet. Down to 1700 from 2k after losing a few small hands. The only hand I showed down was where I called (laggy) button raise from BB with AT after SB flat, and donk led a KJx flop, and was called by PFR. Gave up/checked through river, and lost to JQ.

No real reads on villain. Saw him raise pre, bet post a couple times and take it down. 20s/30s white guy. Seems like a decent player, 4k+. The table as a whole has been fairly active in 3bets pre, but haven't seen any 4bets yet.

Villain opens MP to $35. HJ calls. Hero 3! To 110 on button with AK. Villain 4! to 290. Hero 5! to 610. Villain shoves. Hero calls.

I didn't like flatting the 4bet - thought about folding. Instead I 5bet small hoping villain either had some bluffs or could make a big laydown - planned to fold to a shove, but called anyway...

Thoughts?

Your small pf squeeze sizing could induce villain to 4b light(4-5x vs open + one caller seems standard). I much prefer flatting the 4b ip than any other option.

How often do you see live players shipping 150bb+ preflop without AA/KK?
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Old 04-19-2017, 06:43 PM   #11
pocketzeroes
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Re: 5/10 - AK all in pre

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Your small pf squeeze sizing could induce villain to 4b light(4-5x vs open + one caller seems standard). I much prefer flatting the 4b ip than any other option.

How often do you see live players shipping 150bb+ preflop without AA/KK?
5bet was specifically bc I thought I may have induced, recognizing that a lot of strong but not premium hands might not love flatting and being OOP in a bloated multiway pot.

Even with position and even getting pretty good odds to call the 4bet, I don't see how I'm going to win more than I lose when I flat at these stack sizes/SPR. I don't think I can profitably call or raise any cbets on a low flop, and hands like JJ and QQ (if villain has these) are likely to dump their hands if I make mine. Even dominated aces, which will win most flops with a cbet, are often able to let go on an ace high flop.
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Old 04-19-2017, 10:44 PM   #12
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Re: 5/10 - AK all in pre

If your opponent can see your holecards you should just fold pre.
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Old 04-20-2017, 08:56 AM   #13
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Re: 5/10 - AK all in pre

In position I'm flatting and playing poker if it's a villain I know isn't just gonna get it in with AA/KK on any flop/turn.

Otherwise folding is fine
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Old 05-04-2017, 05:57 AM   #14
18000rpm
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Re: 5/10 - AK all in pre

Somewhat similar http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...d-spew-1665195
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Old 05-07-2017, 06:33 PM   #15
Jarretman
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Re: 5/10 - AK all in pre

You didn't mention if you had AKs or AKo, it plays a role tbh.

Either way, as played I'm calling the 4bet or folding if I think he's too tight.

If you're considering folding to the 4bet than 5bet folding AK here isn't that bad, else just call the 4bet.
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