V1 (~5000) is one of the best players in the room (according to other people I respect), but I haven't seen much of him. Not a super amount of history with hero, as hero doesn't often play on weekends, and he only plays weekends when the big games are going.

V2 (~3000) is a drunk recreational player. He's been totally spewing, is in the game for 6k~, opening to $100 pre without looking, insta cold calling 3bets pre, going all in on the flop w/ bottom pair etc. Last hand he just doubled up by opening to $100 pre with Q5o in EP, calling a 3bet, and open shoving A52 board, rivering a 5. He's been doing some really crazy **** lately.

Hero (covers) Young white guy, V1 doesn't know that I play mostly 2/5 on weekdays, probably thinks I'm some internet player. So far at this table I've doubled up once for 2k stacks vs V2 when I flopped a set of 3s on AK3 when V2 had AK . Other than that I've been really inactive.

Preflop 8 handed, V1 opens UTG to $40 (standard raise at this table), V2 calls in MP, Hero calls on BTN with 2s2c, sb calls $40.

Flop ($170): AK2

Sb checks, V1 checks, V2 checks, hero bets $145 (V2's continuing range is very inelastic on this board, thoughts on maybe over-betting?) sb folds, V1 calls, V2 calls.

Turn ($605): 7

V1 checks, V2 checks, hero bets $385, V1 calls, V2 calls.

River ($1760): 7

V1 leads $965 (4k+ back), V2 goes all in (instantly) for $~2400, hero?

I'm lost. I probably shouldn't be playing this high, this deep,

V1 scares the **** out of me but you clearly have to call vs the whale you described.

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Flat the riv - fold to V1 shove - Though it may have worked out perfectly for him, I'm not crazy about V1s line especially if he respects your game.

Not that I assume the UTG opening range is KK+, but with the MP playing extremely loose and probably garnering plenty of pilot fish, he can't really get out of line too much from this position in its current dynamic.

As I read through the hand, I kept waiting for the dynamic to be between you and the drunk MP, but once the UTG c/c'd the flop I realized the MPs role in this hand was simply to be the ping pong between you and the UTG. The UTG utilized it to perfection by not pressuring the hands to either thin the field or scare the MP (his main source of projected income here). He understood that a flop c-bet couldn't come lightly, thus showing at least one of his cards (most likely the A) and allowing the field to either fold out with minimal loss, or take a single stab to pressure him off his holding and creating a very predictable situation where he folds out or takes a stand and probably receives no further action (unless he gets out drawn).

His line is one of maximization in a very predictable sense (often times hindsight is needed for clarification as being in the moment offers plenty of mental gymnastics), where he extends a leash and lets the MP be the catalyst for enlarging the pot, even if by mere presence of tagging along.

If you had whiffed and decided to check the flop, I imagine he makes 2/3rd pot bet on the turn and hopes the MP will tag along to manufacture a small-medium pot. Had the MP folded the flop, it wouldn't surprise me if you had faced a turn lead bet as he fears a checked through street, a free card with no river value to come, and the original flop bet coming from the BTN where a predictable steal bet can take place (i.e, one and done).

I can't see how we aren't facing AA/KK here, and the issue I have is that the UTG has ~4k behind and your call will not close the action. So in essence, it's ~5k to you, not 2.4k.

This is the type of hand that if you find a fold you should also probably find a short walk...

Gross

I guess we can call/fold here which is disgusting but i cant see folding now

He probably has no idea who am I and he doesn't know that I know who he is.

pretty hard to imagine a good player like v1 c/c 2 streets on this board with AA/KK, especially with the whale in the pot. seems like he would want to cut off the draws, especially on the turn once the 2nd club comes out. not to mention that he's 300bb effective with a maniac so he should want to be getting more money in the pot.

hard to put the whale on any specific hand since he seems to play any two cards like the nuts.

gross spot for sure, but i think we have to call here and hope v1 has AK.

+1 to agnostia's thoughts. I can't think of a way a guy with AA or KK does not bang the pot on the turn to either fold the flush draw, or more likely from your description, get the middle player to put a ton of money in the pot. He has to think there is a chance that you could put in money as well, since by continuing on the turn you are showing up with AK here quite a bit. It looks like he is pot controlling. Obviously he has to have a strong range. I just can't fold with the middle player making the move.....God that is tough...V1 has to expect you to have something...maybe that is why it is so gross.

Better idea...I like jlocdog's post too. I like his idea that it is 5 k to you....
let's say he expects the mid player to call, the pot would be 3690 and cost 965 to call...that would be almost 4-1. That really looks like a big hand....Soul read...I guess this is a tough fold with bottom full house in a really bad spot. You are deep, and if the money went in on the flop, you would not think your hand was good would you?

I think now that both previous posters were on with the ideas they presented, but being so deep I do think you are facing a likely better hand more often than not.

v2 is over valueing one pair hand or v2 is trying to Bluff to impress?

for me either way V1 should not be betting 9xx into 17xx pot on top of his range, he should be value betting harder.
i dont think it s a stupid call

HOWEVER in ur case if u used to play 2/5 : do u play 5/10 because u dont have a choice or u want to move up?

if u play because no choice that means u dont have proper bankroll for 5/10 and also u wont in the other side of the Cooler often enough to make the money back: fold and leave the table and get back for 100bb

Calling this all in looks so strong if V1 then goes all in over the top you can safely fold IMO


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I don't generally give much credence to balance, GTO etc in live poker but 22 is the top of our range (one combo of Ah7h but it's basically the same as 22). With V2 in the hand I'm never flatting KK or AA pre

And we're not that protected by V2 because he could have random Kx, bluffs etc. So can't V1 just shove all his Ax, AK, maybe even Kx and we're folding 100%?

That is a pretty big parlay. Make us fold a set and have the rec show up with Kx. That would be one of the sickest reads ever and basically massive spew since we bet 2 streets and got call overcalled. Even a massive spazzfish would be able to discern that bluffing all in with Kx here would make no sense so we should absolutely be protected by his raise.

Nobody wants to say it so I will. Fold river. Flame away.

Seems extremely goofy to not have AA or KK. Your sizing on flop is super obvious. I'm definitely playing hand like V1 with KK and AA with your sizing on flop. Fold river. Cry and watch in amazement when he shows AA

Would you or anyone else mind enlightening me on how V1 checking a set is maximizing here? I get that continuing ranges become tight esp from V3 (hero) but so are stabbing ranges


From V1 pov i can see checking AQs/AJs so as not to get blown off the pot 300bb deep vs V2. Not that I'd agree, but stretching that logic further, as played, on the river he may be leading half pot to get value from V2 as hero may not vbet Ax vs two opponents 3 streets on AKx77. His reasoning being that hero can really only have 5 combos that beats him (22, A7s) and not every reg would even raise those. To me AK makes more sense for this line but would like to hear others' thoughts

V2 can have both A7 and K7 for sure. I don't think most maniacs jam river to fold off chops or turn Kx into a bluff like ever so that leaves only gut shot double floats, but that's a live read of where he fits in that player type spectrum. fwiw i see his blind bets and jamming Q5 as more brute force agression and less sophisticated than turning Kx into a river bluff or folding out a chop

my 2c is that if we're beat its by V2 more than V1 and combined its by under 10 combos from both. Calling or folding live reads apply imo

I agree with ^ that v2 can have k7 and a7 all combos. Even maniacs have it sometimes.

Jarretman,

I was all over this damn post. It is a frustrating spot. My original post shows that. I liked Scoops thought. It is not the standard optimal line I would think the set of aces or kings would take. However, maybe this is the randomizing time he decided to knuckle twice and lead. Either way, I think you did have the concerns already about the V1 reopening the betting if you called the middle player's all in.

Looks like the post is slowing a bit...What happened? What was your reasoning?
send me a pm if you don't want to dump the thread yet. ty

^ sent you a pm. I'd like to get some more responses because I think the play I made might have been really bad

I'd check AA here vs drunk V who has been open shoving/blind raising. When V doesnt raise turn he prolly has Ac and isnt worried about backdoor flush. Half pot lead on the river looks strong, so does drunk V. I'd fold, flatting is ok due to dynamics but raising is an overplay at this point.

+1, this is the most likely hand. Also what the hell is reg turning into a bluff or v-betting worse? AK maybe?

Pretty easy fold.

Interesting spot indeed. Like many of us I hate to fold a full house on the river.

You could perhaps construct a calling argument by reasoning that V1 *could* be making a blocking bet on the river with AK or the like, and V2 *could* read V1's lead as that and be trying to win with a bluff or a 7x type hand. Or V2 could just be spazzing.

So you could call V-2's shove, with the plan to fold to a re-shove from V1. But as OP says above, V2 can easily have made a bigger FH with A-7, K-7, etc. And V1's line is somewhat consistent with AA waiting to the river to pull the trigger and get all of V2's stack and yours too.

I guess I'm in the fold to V2's shove camp.

Based on the comments : I feel like v1 had A7 here..... but as v2 certainly has a 7 or A, it removes some combos and to be honest In game it is very if not impossible to fold... if u lose it is because of drunk guy - just offset it in your mind by all the times this kind of guy made donation to you... Pay it

Live poker is personal. When someone is described as "one of the best players in the room (according to other people I respect)", I take that to mean he has mastered the art of feeling, interpreting, deciphering, and executing in the hostile dynamic that live poker offers. Picking up on who, how, what, why, and ultimately when people are doing what they're doing, in that order.

Cataloging who is drunk, tight, nasty, ego fueled, selectively loose, talkative, perceptive, playing above/below their normal stakes, tilted, acting fake, is a reg/tourist, etc. The first step in analyzing your competition, your surroundings, and the initial dynamic hurdle one must overcome. Ultimately he breaks down himself vs the table in a 30,000 foot view of sorts.

Learning how their opponents got to the point they currently are in. Did they come to the table with a purpose, an issue, an understanding, a skill set, a reconciliation, a game plan, a mission, etc. This piggy backs off of the first step of 'who', just going a step further to understanding the table dynamic. The 'how' comes second because it may result in 'who' is there and may sometimes/often shape the 'how'.

Deciphering what their opponents style/speed is, rivalries they may currently have with each individual at the table, mind frame they are in, goals/priorities they value most, etc. This begins the translation of the information of 'who', 'how', and 'what' into exploitation and manipulation.

Understanding why their opponents are doing what they're doing is a combination of perception, probing, and recall. Obvious ones like a player being drunk can ultimately be attributed to a persons looseness/range evaluation, but more subtle ideas such as taking intricate lines or what may at first glance appear to be a less EV play on paper can be reverse engineered through these four steps of information gathering to gain a better vision on their opponents play.

Lastly, when comes about as they are able to use the inductive and deductive reasoning of all the information they now possess to make accurate guesses as to peoples actions in precise spots. This is often known as the zigging when they zag effect. Injecting oneself into the logical step of your opponents minds once the aforementioned steps are accurately depicted.

The above rant is my way of justifying the UTG play of a big hand where others may see it as a far inferior, less EV line to take with a hand like AA/KK in this spot. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for FPS in the name of maximizing from 2 spots, given that the BTN has bet twice into two people, obviously showing interest and the drunk MP is caught in the middle throughout allowing for some [hopeful] unpredictability to be injected into this hand that can trap the BTN.

A more conventional approach to playing a big hand more straight forward may garner bets from either the drunk MP or the BTN who shows interest, but probably not both considering the pressure would be coming from up front and any reaction/pushback from wither player can easily send the third playing fleeing. The lead needs to be given up if he wants to attract both players to the end. The risk is obviously lost bets in some cases but that is the calculated risk I believe he was taking here.

With all that said, AK is obviously a very real possibility and his line can easily reflect that. But with not closing the action, I can't comfortably justify calling the 2.4k only to fold to a UTG shove, and I can't dismiss the possibility that the UTG can read the MP for a move, and shove an inferior hand (see:AK) if only to fold us (as we would probably just shove after the MP raises if we had A7+). So, if we call the MP raise we must be prepared to call it all off, and I'm not sure I want to be doing that vs a player of UTG caliber in this dynamic.

Alsi, I find it funny that you play a LAG style yourself and you do not apply those thoughts and ideas to other hands and play with the same consistency you do on your own game.

We can not give credence to anything that the mid position player does here. Also, don't forget that the V1, is UTG, and is to the original poster's words, "one of the better players around".

How does villain 1 show up with A7 here in this spot, and never raise either the flop or turn, or bet the flop or turn at least once? Furthermore, if both V1 and V2 have A7, which is the least likely scenario, how did they get there checking and calling the whole way?

I guess generally, to make it as simple as possible reconstructing the hand, give the credence to the most likely scenario and work it back as though that were the case. IF that situation is too unlikely, then work another one back. I think A7 here for UTG is almost impossible, and for BOTH V1 and V2 to have A7, is likely twice so.

I don't think it should matter so much what V2 has. The OP does not give him much credence. Which, by the way, is why he is in such a quandary. It is the play of Villain 1 that is troublesome. OP would likely call the fish in the middle if V1 was out of moves or out of hand.

[/QUOTE]
The above rant is my way of justifying the UTG play of a big hand where others may see it as a far inferior, less EV line to take with a hand like AA/KK in this spot. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for FPS in the name of maximizing from 2 spots, given that the BTN has bet twice into two people, obviously showing interest and the drunk MP is caught in the middle throughout allowing for some [hopeful] unpredictability to be injected into this hand that can trap the BTN.

A more conventional approach to playing a big hand more straight forward may garner bets from either the drunk MP or the BTN who shows interest, but probably not both considering the pressure would be coming from up front and any reaction/pushback from wither player can easily send the third playing fleeing. The lead needs to be given up if he wants to attract both players to the end. The risk is obviously lost bets in some cases but that is the calculated risk I believe he was taking here.

With all that said, AK is obviously a very real possibility and his line can easily reflect that. But with not closing the action, I can't comfortably justify calling the 2.4k only to fold to a UTG shove, and I can't dismiss the possibility that the UTG can read the MP for a move, and shove an inferior hand (see:AK) if only to fold us (as we would probably just shove after the MP raises if we had A7+). So, if we call the MP raise we must be prepared to call it all off, and I'm not sure I want to be doing that vs a player of UTG caliber in this dynamic.[/QUOTE]

***
This is very interesting hand, and jlocdog's comments ^ are spot on IMO. If V 1 is as good as advertised (and hero is uncomfortable at these stakes) I have no trouble believing v1 could know exactly where hero stands and was trying to keep what he perceives to be two spots in the hand.

Also, Alsi, I agree w/ schmidts31 - I can't see v1 having A7 here.

it was based on this comment that I say that .
played bad I was guessing that Hero pushed and only got called by better :A7 /AA/KK or got AK to fold ..

AA/KK is strange the way it played at least from KK - because Button can easily check an ace OTT and we can miss huge value with Drunk player willing to call something nice.

After evaluating different lines here, we are beat by A7/AA and we beat... heu AK?? (less likely ?)

we are 2/5 players, this call represents 5 to 800bb at 2/5 (if we call shove)
we will not get it back quickly if we play regularly in 2/5.

I am not saying we are scared money but we only bet AK or i m mistaken??
less combos of AK than AA KK + A7


odds are good and pot is juicy so mathematically is a call.
however my superstition would tell me A7/AA got there.
(more than 1:2 and with a Weighted hand range maybe we are 40% good? but do we want this EV for this level of stack at a limit higher than our usual and there might be better spot with the drunk guy?

as u all know I am a donk and I call definitely play A7 this way small balling having MUB/or foreseeing a WA/WB situation where pot is getting huge

and the detail that kills me: river bet vs pot is alightly more than 50% which is already almost 100bb for a good value bet, at the same time we are making it slightly below 1k (i think it s called psychological price in marketing? ) as if we are selling our hand (we are vilain) so except AK we dont beat all other possible combos

last but not least : the flop is dry and hero s line is repping strong here - 3 players even if one is drunk (Vilain must give credit to hero for something nice - because as this flop is dry and turn ok opens a FD and kept it try and hero kept the lead over OR OTT - vilain s Donking OTR is repping AK+