Btn: pro whom I haven't played much with but looks good. Been fairly active generally and quite low fold to 3b over 2/3 session sample. Also has been quite sticky in some postflop spots so definitely not a fit or fold guy.

Hero: know tag pro, played solid and haven't got too outline in sessions with Btn. Fairly active 3b in this session.

Note: misclicked my 3b sizing too big, meant to be 350.

(5/10/20). Villain rz btn to 75(5.8k), Hero 3b sb with KKto 400(10k), he flat.

568

Hero cb 525, he call. Turn 4. Hero ch call 675. Riv 7. Hero...

I would check flop A LOT. This board is AIDS incarnate for our range, especially OOP and deep.

OTR, I can't imagine this card helps our range more than it helps his, so I would start by checking. I'd probably only go for the x/r when we hold the Ah, but holding the Kh and unblocking 9x is a somewhat distant second if there's some reason you're compelled to go for it here.

Kinda just feels like a "**** you, dealer" spot from flop-onwards and don't think this is this is the part of your range that's gonna bail you out of it.

terrible flop
i'd start by checking as good villains who understand ranges can/should blow us off our hand with a raise

with this board i'd just start checking a bunch of times and evaluate each street. i'm pretty sure someone could convince me x/f by the turn would be the best decision longterm but i'd prob be x/c all the way

I wouldn't 3bet pre at this depth at all. Prefer just flatting my entire range, it's too easy to be capped on some many boards when you split your range.

It's 300 bigs effective (seems deeper since it's usually a 5/10 game)

At what depth would you consider flatting your entire range?

Also would your answer change if we were in position?

It is fairly trivial to not be capped on many boards. Being deeper makes 3betting better because villain can't reach a leverage point with a reasonable 4bet, which means we can 3bet a really large range and then have a 5bet and a flatting range.
Since we can 3bet a larger range, vs a loose button opener I'd go as high as 15%, consisting of the top 7% of our range (with everything weighted, so almost always 3betting AA and only occassionaly 3betting 99/AJo), and the last 8% filled in with lower pairs and suited cards weighted heavier to ones we can't call with that have blockers or are connected but also some Axs/QJs type hands, just at a lower percent.

nah just build your 3b ranges better and play better postflop in 3b pots
as for the hand start by checking and doing alot of folding

lol, so you don't have a 3betting range once you get deep enough? Sick advice.

On this board texture as the 3better oop we're going to be fairly capped and the IP caller has a lot more "nutted" combos e.g. 2pair/straights/sets, whereas we're very highcard heavy with the occasional nut flushes and T9-KQs

We're going to have a lot of weaker hands we're forced to bet flop with, so to construct a proper check/calling range deep vs this villain that allows us to call down multiple streets, adding this strong of hand in our check/calling range seems appropriate.

You should have a non-existant check/raising range ott, because of the board texture we have so few nutted combos and V is going to almost always bet river that we want to remain uncapped, so I don't mind a check/jam otr -- he can conceivably fold a decent amount of 9x when we're a TAG pro shoveling in 600bb (300bbeff)

what are you guys saying exactly

I'm saying that being deep isn't a good reason not to 3b kk sb v btn

I think I remember DGAF debating (lengthily) this issue of 3betting OOP deep and I believe he is of the opinion that it's not advantageous to do so. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

I'll trust his judgement given that he is a long term winner and his reasoning seems really solid to me overall.

I also have a friend who I respect who won 100k last year at NL400 - 1000 online, he also told me not to 3bet deep OOP. But yeah, I don't know the correct reasoning, just like I don't know things about mathematics or physics or chemistry, but I rely on evaluating the character and merits of experts to get some semblance of knowledge.

Hopefully DGAF will respond himself, but I have a lot of trouble believing this is true. People tend to open a strong range, not a polarized range, which should encourage us to raise and fold more often, instead of call and fold. If you can 3bet and force some of that strong range to fold you are reducing their EV. In addition, being OOP is much less exploitable when you have a dominating range - that is to say, if you can have AA and your opponent can't, even OOP you will get to realize a larger portion of your equity than your opponent. I am basing this off a large sample size of PIOSolver flops with an 8% 3bet range vs an 11% flatting range.

Poker is inherently a game of numbers - card values, chip amounts, frequencies, combinatorics - and as the multiwayness of preflop is too complicated for existing abstractions to approximate it remotely well, we are left with qualitative assessments that attempt to reduce the math to statements of 'relatively more' or 'relatively less' in 'some spots'. The issue is when these reductions grow so detached from mathematical reality that all arguments for anything are assigned equal viability and force, thus allowing conclusions to be cherry-picked to suit the analyst's disposition or convenience.

Past a certain point of depth, it would follow from this argument that Villain will be able to reach a leverage point with a reasonable 6-bet, making 4-betting once again hot and 5-betting not - and so 3-betting must tighten up again. One would imagine this occurring for 2.5x BTN opens at 600 BB effective stacks, for instance. Past another threshold, 3-betting can rewiden, because the last person to put in the stack-threatening amount of money is OOP, with the 7-bet.

What this argument fails to consider is that the probability of reaching each leverage point shrinks at a devastating rate. This is due in large part to the Ace blocker preflop. With AA, it will eventually become so likely that someone has a bluff as opposed to the single remaining combination of AA that flatting becomes a highly competitive option. As a result, I do not expect the increased EV-significance of these lines to nearly catch up with their rapidly diminishing frequency.

In this particular spot, I would only 3-bet SB vs BTN, and never flat, but for vastly different reasons: I expect both EV(3-bet) and EV(flat) to be monotonically decreasing with stack depth, but EV(flat) to be hit much harder because of BB's incentives, especially considering the open size.

wat

Well, it means that I would 3-bet less, flat never, and fold more than if I were shallow (100-150 BB).

Okay doke. Well thanks for discussion on pf, I'm pretty comfortable 3b this deep especially given my initial reads on villain tendencies vs 3b but open for debate.

Flop I agree ch>better than CB at this stack depth without correlated reads on his postflop tendencies.

As played turn I think is std. Any thoughts?

As played riv is really interesting I think. What's your line?

(Not otf) didn't see you were this deep - rly ez x/c

I'm just messin

Good post

If I'm in villains spot and am checked to on turn im blasting turn and river with basically my entire range (which includes 0 equity flop floats) because it's just so hard for hero to call down, and if hero does ch/c turn with Ah he will usually lead river if flush hits ime. Bet check/call is just not a line you see people take with flopped nuts here. It's the an overpair with a heart or Ahx always

With that said if I bet flop I would continue betting turn, about half pot which I think keeps Ahxh in our range. We are still probably getting value from QhQ JhJ and Ahx hands and I don't expect to be semi bluffed very often on turn.

Also makes river easier to play

^this is why I say build your 3b ranges better and play better post flop
If you 3b a good balanced range here you'll have plenty of hands to x and snap off strategies like this and anyone w a clue will be x a huge portion of full range on this texture

That sounds like a problem with your cbetting/turn betting/checking range, possibly with your 3bet range as well. Think about the best way to play our value vs a villain who floats flop with 0 equity then double barrels 100%.