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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 05-12-2017, 10:47 AM   #1
rbenuck4
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5-10-20 bluff catching

Hero is likely viewed as spewy, able to call down way light. Villain's are both the worst players at the table. They are waaaaay too loose. Villain #1 probably has a bit more situational awareness, but it can't make up for his poor preflop decisions. Villain #2 has no positional awareness. He will lead out no matter what the preflop action is with any of his hands that hit, and is really sticky. Villain #1 has 3000, Villain #2 has 2500, hero covers.

Preflop. Villain #2 limps in UTG, hero makes it 100 from MP (raises in this game are slightly larger than usual so this is a fairly standard raise) with AQ, Villain #1 calls from button, blinds fold, Villain #2 calls.

My range for both players are pretty much ATC that are remotely connected minus all premium hands.

Pot is 335

Flop is Q65

Checked to me, I bet 175, both players call

Pot is 860

Turn is K

Checked around

River is J

Checked to villain #1, he bets 625, villain #2 folds, it's on me.
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Old 05-12-2017, 02:27 PM   #2
soah
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Re: 5-10-20 bluff catching

bet the turn, call the river
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Old 05-12-2017, 03:02 PM   #3
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Re: 5-10-20 bluff catching

fold, because its a terrible run out for your specific hand. you should be able to have some straights/flushes/2p/Kx. Not a lot of reason to be calling with 2nd pair when you have so many better hands, but you could make the argument for calling AsQx

also turn X is good. they can both have plenty of Kx in their range so its a pretty awful card especially multiway, and you have too much SDV to turn hand into bluff
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Old 05-13-2017, 11:25 AM   #4
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Re: 5-10-20 bluff catching

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Originally Posted by Tehkid View Post
fold, because its a terrible run out for your specific hand. you should be able to have some straights/flushes/2p/Kx. Not a lot of reason to be calling with 2nd pair when you have so many better hands, but you could make the argument for calling AsQx

also turn X is good. they can both have plenty of Kx in their range so its a pretty awful card especially multiway, and you have too much SDV to turn hand into bluff


What Kx hands do they have in their range?

Let's give the villains half the KQ combos because UTG will mostly not limp with it pre and BTN will 3b sometimes.

So those plus + KXhh?

That being said I don't think checking behind is awful if we intend to bluffcatch river but it's certainly not my preferred approach here.

River call is close, can go either way tbh. Very villain dependent (and whether or not I'm stuck )
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Old 05-13-2017, 02:36 PM   #5
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Re: 5-10-20 bluff catching

checking turn is really, really bad. id consider betting river with more info on villains; as played, call.

also, how do you square your read on V2 that he will bet out from any position when he hits with the fact that he x/c flop and checked turn+river?
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:41 AM   #6
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Re: 5-10-20 bluff catching

how is checking turn rly rly bad wat are u talking about
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Old 05-15-2017, 02:39 PM   #7
jvds
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Re: 5-10-20 bluff catching

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how is checking turn rly rly bad wat are u talking about

both villains are terrible, straightforward, and loose, and hero has a spewy image - i don't really understand why you think checking would even be close? can you expand on that?
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Old 06-13-2017, 10:39 AM   #8
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Re: 5-10-20 bluff catching

Results. I called, he mucked, and MHIG
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Old 06-13-2017, 08:30 PM   #9
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Re: 5-10-20 bluff catching

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Originally Posted by jvds View Post
both villains are terrible, straightforward, and loose, and hero has a spewy image - i don't really understand why you think checking would even be close? can you expand on that?
It becomes closer in live poker bc of how many buttons get clicked otr by really bad players in standard spots where have have obvious value / great bluffactchers.

I used to think that a turn bet was standard here bc the range we are targeting is lower Qx/draws/sticky pairs and the value to be had from that range is ott but live players click such awful buttons otr after turn checks through that I've started taking more passive lines in the right line ups.

It's basically a more complex decision tree of how wide a flop x/calling range is (lol wide) compared to how thin turn continuing ranges are (thinner than you'd think) vs. how wide river button clicking can be after turn checks imo. All considering the fact that we are letting villains realize their equity ofc. Which is fine when their vpip is >30% and their f2cb is 0%.

Just adding a diff perspective. I bet turn alot.
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Old 06-14-2017, 04:04 PM   #10
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Re: 5-10-20 bluff catching

There's a lot of kx that's in play here. The k is pretty good for our range so I guess in theory we could be betting a lot. But multiway i just think checking is gonna be fine to play some rivers.
Think aq could be a little thin here and just be valuecutting yourself 3ways. I could be wrong tho honestly think you'd need a sim to find out best line. In jvds defense there's a bunch of raggedy stuff that's drawing here that will get x/called so depending on how wide these guys are betting could be pretty good. Lol so I'm going back the other way a bit here
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:32 PM   #11
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Re: 5-10-20 bluff catching

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
It becomes closer in live poker bc of how many buttons get clicked otr by really bad players in standard spots where have have obvious value / great bluffactchers.

I used to think that a turn bet was standard here bc the range we are targeting is lower Qx/draws/sticky pairs and the value to be had from that range is ott but live players click such awful buttons otr after turn checks through that I've started taking more passive lines in the right line ups.

It's basically a more complex decision tree of how wide a flop x/calling range is (lol wide) compared to how thin turn continuing ranges are (thinner than you'd think) vs. how wide river button clicking can be after turn checks imo. All considering the fact that we are letting villains realize their equity ofc. Which is fine when their vpip is >30% and their f2cb is 0%.

Just adding a diff perspective. I bet turn alot.
i generally agree with this, but just not in this spot w/ AQ. based on v descriptions i think we get 3 streets against Qx ~often and sometimes even against worse pairs (when considering our image) on brick rivers. i agree checking has value and they will generally play rivers poorly/button click, but they are also going to play rivers poorly after we bet, but with a bigger pot. as you alluded to there is also some value in cleaning up our equity against hands that arent putting more $ in the pot, but agreed this is not a big factor. there is probably a little bit of information missing here that gets at the difference in value between betting and checking that you were talking about, which is how much they are going to be button clicking. <- is partially why i asked how OP squares his read about one of the V's always stabbing with him x/c/x here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
There's a lot of kx that's in play here. The k is pretty good for our range so I guess in theory we could be betting a lot. But multiway i just think checking is gonna be fine to play some rivers.
Think aq could be a little thin here and just be valuecutting yourself 3ways. I could be wrong tho honestly think you'd need a sim to find out best line. In jvds defense there's a bunch of raggedy stuff that's drawing here that will get x/called so depending on how wide these guys are betting could be pretty good. Lol so I'm going back the other way a bit here
im sort of skeptical that there is a meaningful amount of Kx here as a fraction of continuing ranges, since when v's have all the Kxhh combos, they will also have a bunch of other hh combos as well as stuff like QTo. i also get the impression that you dont expect, for instance, 86ss to be continuing ott ever, and i think that will happen sometimes. i agree that how wide v's are continuing is probably where we differed in opinion originally, and that it makes a difference.

i guess im flexible on the number of 'really's, but not the number of 'bad's from my original post, but maybe im misinterpreting OPs descriptions of the villains.
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Old 06-14-2017, 10:14 PM   #12
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Re: 5-10-20 bluff catching

FWIW if this was a single raised pot hu with a decent player I'd 100% bet turn bc he basically expects me to bet this turn and not betting would be more suspicious / definitely lose value.

I know that's a completely diff circumstance just trying to make a point. I've seen the best player in my room take 2 street value lines A TON and I *think* he would check turn here and after a few hundred hours I think I better understand why (my initial post) This is specifically game dependent to loose passive multiway games. He plays much differently in higher stakes / tougher line ups...and I think most specifically, lower %players-seeing-flop tables.

After pondering this quite a bit and seeing him take passive lines that blow my mind I think it has to do with how wide continuing ranges are otf and how to best extract value from said range ott/r. And the fact that in 2017 it's harder to get 3 street value bets in good in single raised pots with one pair.
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Old 06-14-2017, 10:58 PM   #13
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Re: 5-10-20 bluff catching

i really do hear you and appreciate that there are plenty of spots where (otherwise) weirdly passive lines can generate a lot of value for the reasons you outlined above. that being said, (imo) this is one of those spots where the other two guys know that you cant win if you fold, hero has a great image, and we flopped the nuts -> gotta just keep piling (obv being a little facetious but you get the point).

a minor reason why this situation isnt quite as favorable for checking as it seems is that we are gonna be going 3 ways to the river and the guy most likely to try to steal the free money (v2) is utg and has to lead into 2 other players, one of whom isnt hero and "must have something" when he calls the flop. it just sucks a lot when the river checks thru and we win against J7hh and a pair of nines.

i still think its possible that we get 3 streets with 1p here sometimes but maybe im just an optimist
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