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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 06-26-2012, 10:55 PM   #1
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5/10/20 aggro table filled with good players

I had 99 in MP
CO/BTN are both capable of squeezing(both have done so twice within last hour)
The whole table is pretty aggro, filled with good players and some bad but still aggro

Stacks are $2K+ for everyone, BTN has $4K I have him covered just.

This hand he button-straddles to $20

SB folds, BB sitting with $3K makes it $80(his range is pretty normal, not loose), UTG $1K stack calls(he's backraised once before fwiw and I think he's looking for opportunity to jam it in against bigger stacks), folded to me in MP

If I call here I will certainly get squeezed to $400 at least.

If I raise here I might be behind EP's opening and even calling ranges, and there's no guarantee that LP's wouldn't flat or 4bet due to how the table was playing.

As well as CO/BTN being aggro-good, a couple of guys to my left are also decent, thinking players capable of making moves.

Yes we are deepish but not suuuuper-deep for what is a $10/20 hand..

So what would you do? (No, I'm not looking for advice such as "table change"... I mean that's obvious, but we're dealt a hand and there's a decision to be made..)

How about if you have TT? AQ?

Last edited by 663366; 06-26-2012 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 06-27-2012, 02:08 AM   #2
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Re: 5/10/20 aggro table filled with good players

I would make it something like $320 here...it's true that you could be behind EP's opening range, but you can still get called by AJs/AQ type hands. You also get to play the hand in position if it folds around to them and either (or both) of them flat. Why you never want to flat pre is because the good aggro players behind you can 1) raise you out of the pot or 2) have position on you for the rest of the hand (99 is so vulnerable).

With TT I would pretty much do the same thing...with AQ it's pretty close but I also think raising is better in this game, maybe a little less like $280 total.
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Old 06-27-2012, 05:33 AM   #3
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Re: 5/10/20 aggro table filled with good players

CO or BTN would have to be pretty crazy to be sqzing light here if they are at all decent and are aware of the tighter opening ranges. if they are that breed, i guess there isn't much to do other than fold the 99 here, esp if the opening ranges are normal. i don't like 3-betting this hand in this position against this lineup. i like calling tho: i don't feel you are getting squeezed here all that often, but if i somehow felt like i was, i'd have to dump it.

tbh, its an annoying spot and TT is pretty much the same hand, and i somehow like AQ better, like the poster above said. i don't feel a need to 3-bet either of these hands tho; you should likely have decent relative position.
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Old 06-27-2012, 08:24 AM   #4
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Re: 5/10/20 aggro table filled with good players

Don't see how anything other than calling is standard in this spot. I wouldnt fear getting 3bet just bc co/bu have done it twice or so the last hour- thats really not out of line.

If we get squeezed, see what develops in front of us and play poker imo.

Calling>folding>raising.
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:09 AM   #5
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Re: 5/10/20 aggro table filled with good players

I mean technically the 'right' play here is to flat with 99/TT and then fold to a 3bet. We only adjust that gameplan if we start to become exploited, and I think you're overestimating how active LP players really are being, it's really not that unlikely that they both picked up AQ/AK type hands a couple times in good spots (our sample is like what, three orbits?). The biggest leak I see by regs in live mid-stakes is people overestimating aggression in opponents and spazzing out wayyy too light for stacks to compensate. Getting 3bet a couple times is like 'oh hey you aren't clueless at poker', it's not until somebody's been squeezing at least 20-25% of their preflop range that it's time to start fighting back.

Also I wouldn't be too worried about them having position if they flat since the EP raiser has the initiative and they won't go too nuts without something in multi-way pots (plus the kinds of boards that they might go nuts on, dry paired boards that nobody stabs at or can rep, are the kinds that 99/TT play very well on anyway).

I'd probably 3bet AQ in this spot like over 80%, but 99/TT are always cool hands to flat with though since they have intrinsic showdown value that can even be fairly under-repped on certain boards, but also don't get us in too much trouble in multi-way pots when we don't score three undercards.
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:13 AM   #6
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Re: 5/10/20 aggro table filled with good players

I'll let the discussion continue but would like to add that while BTN's squeezing is probably legit(he didn't show down, he's aggro, however I don't think he's doing that with junk), CO's 2 squeezes were A4s and KJo so he's def. on the lighter side... in fact one of them I think was from the blinds vs MP open and 2 callers.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:11 AM   #7
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Re: 5/10/20 aggro table filled with good players

Quote:
Originally Posted by slik View Post
CO or BTN would have to be pretty crazy to be sqzing light here if they are at all decent and are aware of the tighter opening ranges. if they are that breed, i guess there isn't much to do other than fold the 99 here, esp if the opening ranges are normal. i don't like 3-betting this hand in this position against this lineup. i like calling tho: i don't feel you are getting squeezed here all that often, but if i somehow felt like i was, i'd have to dump it.

tbh, its an annoying spot and TT is pretty much the same hand, and i somehow like AQ better, like the poster above said. i don't feel a need to 3-bet either of these hands tho; you should likely have decent relative position.
agree
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Old 06-29-2012, 10:43 AM   #8
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Re: 5/10/20 aggro table filled with good players

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Originally Posted by RaiseIt View Post
Calling>folding>raising.
strongly disagree
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Old 06-29-2012, 10:57 AM   #9
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Re: 5/10/20 aggro table filled with good players

I would tend to call here. Depending on who squeezes, and by how much, I might repop them or call again.

Very seldom am I folding pre. I'm also gonna be pretty stubborn post-flop, depending on board texture.
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:04 PM   #10
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Re: 5/10/20 aggro table filled with good players

Call seems standard and profitable. As others have suggested, the button and cutoff squeezing history does not sound that out of line and it is a bad spot for them to do so.
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:51 PM   #11
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Re: 5/10/20 aggro table filled with good players

i drafted up a long respnse to this but the more i think about it, the less certain i am of the best play.

i wanted to put forth the argument that initiative is in fact valuable in spots like this - especially when the situation of flatting pre only to get popped by CO or Button is a likely possibility. I feel like given preflop action and your position, any raise should be viewed as value heavy as opposed to bluff/ISO range but the issue of getting repopped still is what bothers me, but i cant imagine CO or button are going to be 4betting that light - the only opponent who could have a wide 4bet range here is button due to how deep both you and he are (200BBs in a an effective 10/20 pot)

i think if you flat and get popped you're deep enough to call still w/ amount that would be in pot but either way you have to be prepared to attempt to take down the pot w/o flopping a gin hand.

but one thing i dont like about flatting is that you're liable to get popped by a fairly wide range full of Ax and Kx and be OOP making it harder to steal a pot and rep a monster. w/o history i dont think anyone is giving you credit for flatting a monster but still should keep it as a non-zero possibility. but vs. the squeeze you have good relative position since you can see how BB reacts.

In the end though, i think an argument for flatting or raising can be made here with almost equal value attributed to either play, but you'd have to hold a gun to my head to get me to fold any of these hands preflop in this spot.

I guess with BB raising in his position his range should be pretty top of his range considering the straddle from the button which i guess supports an argument for flatting. its the having to flat twice that i dont like since i think it pretty much lines you up for hoping to flop only sets/gin hands and removes a majority of the stronger side of your preflop range making an attempt to take down the pot that much harder post flop.
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