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Old 02-23-2012, 10:23 PM   #101
Haplo
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Thanks for responding to my preflop question DGAF.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:38 AM   #102
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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If you are getting 3bet too often, you are either sitting in ****ty games or not playing back enough IMO. If it's the former, just start really focusing on game selecting. Don't become one of those annoying table hopping/seat hopping every 5 minutes grinders obv, just refuse to sit in bad games- no matter how good you are post flop or whatever. There are plenty of soft games out there in which you can make decent and steady money by playing a ton of hands, you just might need to explore different venues or different hours (possibly even different stakes).

If game selecting is not your issue and you are getting 3bet too often/light, start making your opponents lives miserable IMO. It doesn't take many light 4-bets or elaborate aggro post-flop lines to get people off your back. Once you establish a real slag image/reputation, you will hardly ever get 3-bet light and can just fold most of your range when it does in fact occur. Most people I play with are A LOT more attached to their stacks than I am- they know it and I know it (and they know that I know it). They start the pot controlling process very early/preflop.

Also it sounds like maybe you are opening too wide in ep. That's a huge leak for a lot of excellent post flop players IMO, trying to maximize their flops seen. Sc's are garbage oop, as I'm sure you know... Lastly, never fold to 3-bets when in position (as long as stacks are reasonable and you don't have a real problem hand like A9 or KQ). You get to rep the deck and they rep/have a very narrow range of like TT+ and AQ+ at most.

---

A 3bet pot I just played in 5 10 that kind of got my juices flowing:

I've been opening a ton in a soft game and and have won a lot of pots w/o showdown. I open to 35 in mp with 42. Super short stack calls in the SB, and bb makes it 115 very confidently (I'm pretty sure he has a big pair). I tank and flat and SB flats also with like 50 bucks behind. Bb is a pro tag, very solid, seems like a cool guy, etc. He's been on a massive heater and has run his 600 stack up to like 3500 over the past couple hours. He asks me if I have him covered which tells me he isn't real happy with the spot he put himself in. I don't have him covered, but i have about 2700 behind. Pot is 339.

Flop comes T7:2. SB checks, bb casually bets 185, I take a little time and make it 600. SB ships his 50 bucks, and bb thinks for a while, has the dealer pull in the 185, and then calls the 415.

Turn is the A. Bb checks and I count my stack (2100) and bet 840. Bb folds.

River is the K and mhig, I scoop side pot and main pot.

***Not only do hands like that help boost the chip stack obv, but they also get everyone's attention at the table. No one wants to be put in a bad spot like the one bb was put in, and now they all have another hand of recent proof that I'm a spaztard who doesn't need to have it when he puts 150 bbs in the middle--> they probably won't be 3betting me light any time soon.


i def agree with this, the only thing is that i play at commerce and most of the time in the 5-10 since its capped most guys i play against rarely have over 1500 (if that, most of the time they have around 7-900). so when i raise and someone 3bets to $140 or whatever w/ a $800 stack i normally never think their folding to a 4bet (and they dont) even if their 3betting me with a hand like AJo or whatever not even knowing what they are trying to accomplish.

obv i would prefer to constantly play a deep no cap nl game but the 10/20 is out of my reach due to saving up for expensive private grad school in the future (id like to pay it all off cause debt/loans tilt me).

but everything you said is very spot on. i guess il just start playing deep at bike if i can ever get a seat in that game w/o waiting hours.
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Old 02-25-2012, 12:16 AM   #103
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

How do you feel about c-betting in 3 way pots? If i raise some loose limpers on the button w/ 7sTs or w/e and they both call I pretty much give up c-betting my whiffs except for the very dryest flops (K92r and the like). I just find my c-bet works so infrequently and it sets up a bloated "grab ur sack" barreling situation so often that it became a loser for me.

If I open raise in MP w/ TQ or w/e and get two calls behind me Im even tigher w/ the c-bet, I pretty much have completely given up on cbetting a complete whiff REGARDLESS of board texture.

One "known" internet kid i played w/ in the 10-20nl the other day for like 6 hours had a 95%+ c-bet regardless of flop/opponents and it seems many of them do. I know they have millions of hands online so they must have some reason for playing this way but it never seems to be a money maker.

Last edited by XMember; 02-25-2012 at 12:30 AM.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:57 AM   #104
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

awesome read. i wish i knew u.
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Old 02-25-2012, 01:31 PM   #105
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

*grunch*
ya, you can reward yourself just as much by buying some grapefruit as buying yourself a new watch;
maybe more??

good work, bro.
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Old 02-25-2012, 02:08 PM   #106
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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How do you feel about c-betting in 3 way pots? If i raise some loose limpers on the button w/ 7sTs or w/e and they both call I pretty much give up c-betting my whiffs except for the very dryest flops (K92r and the like). I just find my c-bet works so infrequently and it sets up a bloated "grab ur sack" barreling situation so often that it became a loser for me.

If I open raise in MP w/ TQ or w/e and get two calls behind me Im even tigher w/ the c-bet, I pretty much have completely given up on cbetting a complete whiff REGARDLESS of board texture.

One "known" internet kid i played w/ in the 10-20nl the other day for like 6 hours had a 95%+ c-bet regardless of flop/opponents and it seems many of them do. I know they have millions of hands online so they must have some reason for playing this way but it never seems to be a money maker.
Double barrel.

Internet players have a way better understanding of how to barrel effectively throughout the hand.
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Old 02-25-2012, 06:44 PM   #107
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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How do you feel about c-betting in 3 way pots? If i raise some loose limpers on the button w/ 7sTs or w/e and they both call I pretty much give up c-betting my whiffs except for the very dryest flops (K92r and the like). I just find my c-bet works so infrequently and it sets up a bloated "grab ur sack" barreling situation so often that it became a loser for me.

If I open raise in MP w/ TQ or w/e and get two calls behind me Im even tigher w/ the c-bet, I pretty much have completely given up on cbetting a complete whiff REGARDLESS of board texture.

One "known" internet kid i played w/ in the 10-20nl the other day for like 6 hours had a 95%+ c-bet regardless of flop/opponents and it seems many of them do. I know they have millions of hands online so they must have some reason for playing this way but it never seems to be a money maker.
Cbetting blindly/95% is pretty terrible imo. I think it's a pretty common mistake internet players make as they adjust to live play and multiway pots (this is touched upon in Shane/noluck17's podcast with Bart iirc). My guess is that the "known" player in your game doesn't play much live/full ring, or the stakes were too small for him to play well, or he grossly overestimated his edge in the game, or your sample was too small, or something else super standard...

My general thoughts on cbetting misses (there are a ton of variables obv, but I'll do my best):

- I'm much more likely to do it in position than oop (just like I'm more likely to bet for value ip).
- I like dry boards if I'm the one with the perceived stronger range pre (and wet boards if it's the opposite- say a SNIT calls me from the SB or something).
- I'm much more likely to do it after I've 3-bet than after I've just opened or raised a limper (I can rep overpairs better and spr's are usually manageable).
- I'm much more likely to do it in when stacks are deepish (leaves room for barreling + people are less likely to c/r flop and kill your bd prospects).
- I don't mind doing it multiway (it adds perceived strength), especially if the stronger player/range is sandwiched.
- I usually do it huge (pot +) in multiway pots, or if I'm against small-bet stations.
- I rarely do it in perceived wa/wb spots (883r or something) against good players unless I can rep everything- I raised in lp or have a maniacal image.
- I never do it when my perceived range is capped at overpair on a wet board against good players (say I 3-bet utg+1 and flop comes 765). ***I'm pretty obsessed with what I'm repping with every decision I make in every hand I play.
- I'll do it often if I have 2 overs, or 2 overs to the second card on a board like K73.
- I'll do it often If I get the impression my opponent(s) was set-mining pre (sets are nearly impossible to make ime).
- I love to cbet gutters or bdfd's (again, almost always ip).
- I do it a ton more when I'm running over the table/have a winning image (as opposed to when I'm the stuck and steaming maniac/fish, or the card-dead ******* who can't win a pot).
- I rarely do it multiway if there is one A on board (someone almost always has one and they know the pfr always trys to rep AK lol).
- I almost always do it when I have a weak hand but would have to call a turn lead if I CIB anyways.
- I rarely do it against complete stations, and almost never against complete maniacs.
- Occasionally I'll just "sense" (lol live soul read) my opponents aren't calling for whatever reason, and I'll do it then with no other logic/rationale.

That's all I've got for now. Hopefully that's helpful/not too spewy. I just woke up and I'm kind of distracted because my 2 year old is going bananas- she must of had some sugar.
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Old 02-25-2012, 09:02 PM   #108
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I just woke up and I'm kind of distracted because my 2 year old is going bananas- she must of had some sugar.
i doubt it...

http://www.businessweek.com/careers/...ids_hyper.html
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:12 AM   #109
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Hiyah! Who new? I love learning real life stuff on here, so Ty. On that note (but a way different topic), I learned the following in a pm from finister18 (who really knows his real life **** IMO):

"I was just looking at some psych studies concerning the end of life. . .when on their death beds, most people don't regret that they didn't make more money; but they do regret that they didn't spend more time with their kids and their friends (spouses were kind of plus/minus)"

I thought ^^^ was too cool not to share (hope that's cool, finister18)
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:57 AM   #110
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Hiyah! Who new? I love learning real life stuff on here, so Ty. On that note (but a way different topic), I learned the following in a pm from finister18 (who really knows his real life **** IMO):

"I was just looking at some psych studies concerning the end of life. . .when on their death beds, most people don't regret that they didn't make more money; but they do regret that they didn't spend more time with their kids and their friends (spouses were kind of plus/minus)"

I thought ^^^ was too cool not to share (hope that's cool, finister18)
Absolutely cool. This was a bit of an eye opener for me--Unfortunately, what with work, wife, kids, some hobbies, etc I really let my friendships go (especially with friends who don't have kids). The info above has led me to try to reconnect--but it is hard, once you drift apart. I would say I've only been marginally successful.

Really excellent thread DGAF. . .makes me sad that this is your parting shot. . .but certainly understandable. I wish you the best in poker, future endeavors, and life.
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:04 AM   #111
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Do you play at aria? Headphones read iceman?
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:57 AM   #112
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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"I was just looking at some psych studies concerning the end of life. . .when on their death beds, most people don't regret that they didn't make more money; but they do regret that they didn't spend more time with their kids and their friends (spouses were kind of plus/minus)"

I thought ^^^ was too cool not to share (hope that's cool, finister18)
“I don’t think I’m going to make it… My only regret is not watching more television…”
— Roger (American Dad)
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:13 AM   #113
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Yeah, I grinded the O hard before I moved to Vegas. It was only me and maybe 1 or 2 other pros, and lots of awesome recreational players in the 10-10. Not only were the games amazing, but the environment was great/fun as well. I kind of wore out my welcome though, being the best player and running VERY WELL. I was always very cordial, semi-humble, fun, never berated a fish, etc, but eventually I started rubbing people wrong based on my winrate alone. I started getting a lot of resentment and even a couple threats of violence or whatever. I decided it was time to move to a bigger pond (Vegas), and I have worked very hard to disguise the hard working pro in me ever since--> most people think I'm a fish/rich kid action player when they first start playing with me (some think it forever lol) and I am more than fine with that.

I bounce around a lot now, and will never reg any small place like the O too much/for too long. It's just not good business imo...

If you are in the 5-5 a decent amount, there is a good chance I've given you a courtesy double up while partying or waiting for the 10-20. I hardly ever go there any more (I did for a while when I moved back) because I'm pretty convinced that place is rigged now--> no matter how good I get it in (and people love playing HUGE pots there) I never win .

GL, and I think you are very smart to keep your day job in the current poker climate.

first off, wanted to say thanks for your contributions to this forum. also if it wasn't for your words of confidence/knowledge i don't know if things would be the same for me now.

you really made the game fun in a social setting, prop bets, joking, drinking(not me, you were), etc. i remember we had a bet where whoever won a pot had to give a redbird to the other. you were playing/winning every pot so i obv had a huge edge in this bet but still had the action which was pretty lol to me. now i know why.

that hour of picking your brain for the cheap cost of $100 usd, really enlightened me. i guess i have a lot of thanks because i don't know if i would be exactly where i'm at if it wasn't for you. anyways that being said,

"I was always very cordial, semi-humble, fun, never berated a fish, etc, but eventually I started rubbing people wrong based on my winrate alone."

i feel like i'm starting to fall into this category more so because i shortstack. what do you think about me buying in for the minimum? i have enough good reasons/results to keep me on this path, but may start to think otherwise...


"Something I have confirmed with several good players who have been around for a while: when it seems like someone is picking on you (with constant raises or reraises) and you are clearly a not-scared-money pro, IT'S ALMOST ALWAYS VARIANCE, AND THE STORY WILL CHECK OUT IF YOU LOOK THEM UP- THEY WILL HAVE IT. Players just generally don't pick on pros (or any aggro players for that matter) hardly ever, it's not why they came to the casino or where/how their money is going to be earned."

+1
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:51 AM   #114
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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i feel like i'm starting to fall into this category more so because i shortstack. what do you think about me buying in for the minimum? i have enough good reasons/results to keep me on this path, but may start to think otherwise...
Before DGAF chimes in I'll say it's really, really hard to give off a gambling, fun persona (and still play correctly) while short stacking. You're just never going to be able to get in there in a 3-bet pot with something like a 57 and give the impression you're gambling it up. You're always going to have something. I'd also imagine you're going to be taking a lot of pots down preflop which irks recreational players since they can't get it there with their J7s.
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Old 02-26-2012, 04:43 AM   #115
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I short stack to start off. It's not like I short stack look for a double up and leave. (unless game conditions permit) I stay and build a stack. ESP if game is good I'll play until I think I'm not playing optimally/tired.
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Old 02-26-2012, 04:44 AM   #116
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Also the "Rec" players are regs and don't come and go in this game. I played 10/20 at commerce for the first time and hated because players were constantly leaving/table changing/etc. I thought I was bad but these guys make me look like an angel.
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:30 AM   #117
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Do you play at aria? Headphones read iceman?
Very rarely... and I wish.
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Old 02-26-2012, 09:39 AM   #118
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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first off, wanted to say thanks for your contributions to this forum. also if it wasn't for your words of confidence/knowledge i don't know if things would be the same for me now.

you really made the game fun in a social setting, prop bets, joking, drinking(not me, you were), etc. i remember we had a bet where whoever won a pot had to give a redbird to the other. you were playing/winning every pot so i obv had a huge edge in this bet but still had the action which was pretty lol to me. now i know why.

that hour of picking your brain for the cheap cost of $100 usd, really enlightened me. i guess i have a lot of thanks because i don't know if i would be exactly where i'm at if it wasn't for you. anyways that being said,

"I was always very cordial, semi-humble, fun, never berated a fish, etc, but eventually I started rubbing people wrong based on my winrate alone."

i feel like i'm starting to fall into this category more so because i shortstack. what do you think about me buying in for the minimum? i have enough good reasons/results to keep me on this path, but may start to think otherwise...


"Something I have confirmed with several good players who have been around for a while: when it seems like someone is picking on you (with constant raises or reraises) and you are clearly a not-scared-money pro, IT'S ALMOST ALWAYS VARIANCE, AND THE STORY WILL CHECK OUT IF YOU LOOK THEM UP- THEY WILL HAVE IT. Players just generally don't pick on pros (or any aggro players for that matter) hardly ever, it's not why they came to the casino or where/how their money is going to be earned."

+1
1. The guy who splashes around and also tells jokes and also gets people engaged with props or drinking or whatever is the guy who makes an otherwise bad game good, and he keeps it going all night- even if he's a very winning player. He's also someone who wants more out of his job (and life) than just money.

2. As far as sending redbirds back and forth, you had the best vibe/social skills at the table so I didn't mind it being incredibly -ev for me financially lol. Also, I thought at some point you might feel the need to pull your weight and extend your vpip range beyond all combos of AA .

3. As far as coaching, maybe you did just need some confidence. I think (I could be wrong) there was also one glaring issue/quick fix and your pf sizing was way too small--> every pot you were playing was multiway with huge spr's. Sometimes just telling a few hh's to someone who has been around a while is enough to expose a quick fix like that.

***I'm really torn on how I feel about coaching in general. Now that we play the same stakes, I have successfully contributed (to some degree) to making my games worse. At the same time, if I didn't do it, someone else would have, or you would have taken it to the forums most likely. I also like earning my hourly away from the table with no swings, and helping cool people. It's a real conundrum IMO .

4. If you are good socially and don't hit and run or refuse to straddle when the group is or whatever, you should feel zero pressure to buy in for more than what you think is strategically optimal for you IMO. The last couple times we played together you sat deep iirc, and I thought it was a mistake (not that you are bad deep, just that you are so good shallow).

I actually played in that game the other day and it was a pretty awful lineup (good or aggro players throughout) and I kept my stack at 150 bbs because I thought it was perfect for the conditions (straddle was on a lot, lots of 3-betting light, lots of post-flop fps, etc). I never really got anything playable though, missed my one all in at the bottom of my range but still plenty of equity draw against an overpair in a 6-way pot, and picked up with a 3k L after like 4 hours of card death. I'm pretty sure my stack size decision was correct though, and that's something I've been experimenting with (instead of just always sitting super deep) when games are playing really aggro. You would have been a big favorite at 50 bbs IMO despite the lineup being really ****ty.

5. As an exception to the rule, I will actually pick on other pros on occasion if they are too smug/oblivious to the role variance has played in their recent upswing. It's the vigilante in me, and you will develop it too prob after swinging both ways a million times. Or you will just sit back and say, "this guy has no idea what's waiting around the corner for him lol" like the rest of the vets do.

GL
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Old 02-26-2012, 09:44 AM   #119
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Also the "Rec" players are regs and don't come and go in this game. I played 10/20 at commerce for the first time and hated because players were constantly leaving/table changing/etc. I thought I was bad but these guys make me look like an angel.
Commerce 5-10 is like rush poker, the lineup changes every hand. 10 20 is only slightly less ridiculous in that regard. That place is pretty special.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:41 PM   #120
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I got very good at hand selection between '04 and '08. Then I moved to Vegas and started playing uncapped. Stacks were very often 500+ bb effective, and almost everyone who sat that deep had no business doing so. I literally started playing any 2 from any position. I would then either flop a miracle and massage the pot for some nice value, or rep scare cards/boards and use tons of aggression/over bets to try and win that way. Some boards I wouldn't bother bluffing obv, and against the better players I would balance/level.

Nl evolved though and people started sitting shorter, pot controlling, and playing a lot less fit or fold. I realized that I absolutely sucked at hand selection for these game conditions. I started a thread on here asking for help and surprisingly I got a lot more contributions than flames. I gained a lot from that thread, and I continue to work on my preflop game as it's still easily my weakest street.

Here are my current thoughts on ep (maybe someone better at pre can comment as well):

In normal games with fairly competent players and 100bb average stacks, you want to be opening hands that can win unimproved, or big cards that can flop one pair and often win. You can also play small pp's as long as the players behind you aren't too good/aggro- they usually flop huge or not at all.

You don't really want to open anything else because you will flop dominated so often (when you flop something) and you will be without the 2 overs when you miss and Cbet (that equity is important). You will also lose to missed draws a lot when you cbet air and it gets called once and then checked down.

As games get softer and deeper, you can start adding other hands to your ep opening range as well, but I'd start with Axs before any sc's because it only makes the nf and can flop one pair and win.
Good post
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:10 PM   #121
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I feel like such an idiot for thinking that you were Teddy Monroe cuz of your avatar at first (@a year ago).
I had seen him around for years, playing 10/20 at the V, ect...
played w/ him at Aria recently, and found out first hand that he's the biggest nit on earth.
boy, was I off.
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:54 PM   #122
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Ice is playing NL again? Last few times I've seen him he was playing 8-16 lhe etc.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:31 PM   #123
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Ice is playing NL again? Last few times I've seen him he was playing 8-16 lhe etc.
The more important question is, is he actually playing? Ive seen him sit in games, and leave his chips on the table while he walks around for about 45 mins on the hour and never plays a hand.
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Old 02-26-2012, 11:47 PM   #124
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

He has been playing 2/5 at aria.. I love his videos! Ali g of the poker world!
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:29 PM   #125
jungy121
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SD
Posts: 1,135
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I know we havnt played too much together in a while but, tht time I refused to do a group straddle was the last time I did that. I took what you had to say into consideration and now "take one for the team".

About sitting deep the last few times we played, I really played like a huge pussy when you were at the table raise/folding everything except AA paying the "dgaf tax". I should have left once you came cause I started to play really bad and i feel like the other players at the table started to notice. I have a huge amount of respect for you and didn't want to play a pot oop, but oh well, lesson learned.

When we played I know I havnt done anything special or cool, but I havnt been beating these games waiting for suited aces. I just play super abcdefg when you're around lol.
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