pretty interesting post, wanted to get your take on playing in 3bet pots both in/out of position. i think 3bet pot discussions are pretty rare these days.

i raise a wide range from all positions (trying to fix this recently) and obv because of this i tend to feel that i get 3bet more often. i tend to fold to a lot of 3bets w/ my opening hands that dont warrant 3bet calls (suited connectors oop /k10os/a10os ect) but recently ive been raising good but not great hands (aqs/kqs/ajs/akos/tt/jj) and honestly have no idea how to play these hands to a 3bet.

if i have position i generally call w/ these good but not great hands cause i honestly feel that im pretty much one of the best post flop players in 5-10live when i have position. however when im oop w/ these types of hands i honestly have no idea on the correct way to play them even against typical loose passive players.

w/ hands like tt/jj/ even qq i also do a lot of calling when oop if i get 3bet and take a ck/call/ck/call prob fold river on boards like 44528r if rec players fire 3 bullets but now i think this type of line is burning money. this is because if you have a hand like qq when they fire 3 bullets your never good... but at the same time when you ck/call twice and ck river they never bluff (or generally they ck back TT/JJ when they still have an overpair to the board due to showdown syndrome) so is ck calling all the way even a good play to begin with?

We didn't all torch you!

against a huge amount of live players, if they fire the 3rd barrel on the river then their range is super polarized. I see guys check-back AA there a lot and especially in a 3bet pot IMO. def. a trouble spot, especially with TT/JJ and its really hard OOP.

what do you guys think of donking into the raiser/3baller in these spots? or like a chk/call lead? i know it sounds pretty fishy, but maybe that may not be that bad compared to check/calling and hoping the whole way...

edit:
stupid question, what is the S for in "SLAG"....

i'm not a really big fan of the TAG/LAG terms because they get thrown around a lot and people don't really know what it means and there are very different TAGs and very different LAGs. all i know, is that as i have progressed in poker - from 1/2 to 2/5, to 5/10 and 10/20 now, i've realized that stack depth and position have become much more important than before, oftentimes, more so than just hand selection

donking has to be the worst since your repping next to nothing and a good player isnt going to give up a 3b pot to a donk lead....c/c lead is a little better but once again reps super thin.......think c/c,c/r, or fold are really the only options when you dont smash the flop....

I guess the reason 3b pots arent discussed more is they differ so much and its alot easier to make a huge mistake in one then your average raised pot....I think the best thing is to figure out a villans 3b range and go from there......Id prob also try to figure out how villans react to 4bs assuming they 3b light - some live guys flat way too much so 4b with certain hands might be getting yourself into too much trouble.

I wrote DGAF privately asking about winrates and he asked that I post here. I know there are already multiple threads regarding win rates but I wanted a known and reputable grinder's take on the subject.

The caveat here is that true win rates can't be determined bc of constantly changing conditions such as player pool, adjustments, economy, etc.

My question is what do you think is a top echelon win rate at 5/10 and 10/20 and how many hours must you log to have a high level of confidence in that win rate? I ask this question in order to set goals for myself and recognize where I stand against the competition. There are obviously no exact answers but a possible response could be thr top 1% of all 5/10 players maynmake in the 100/hr range over 1500+ hrs and the top 1% of 5/10 pros could make 150/hr. Any thoughts based on your experiences would be much appreciated.


Thanks again for all of your well thought out and beneficial contributions to 2p2. One of the few posters who really make me think deeply and help accelerate my development.

If you are getting 3bet too often, you are either sitting in ****ty games or not playing back enough IMO. If it's the former, just start really focusing on game selecting. Don't become one of those annoying table hopping/seat hopping every 5 minutes grinders obv, just refuse to sit in bad games- no matter how good you are post flop or whatever. There are plenty of soft games out there in which you can make decent and steady money by playing a ton of hands, you just might need to explore different venues or different hours (possibly even different stakes).

If game selecting is not your issue and you are getting 3bet too often/light, start making your opponents lives miserable IMO. It doesn't take many light 4-bets or elaborate aggro post-flop lines to get people off your back. Once you establish a real slag image/reputation, you will hardly ever get 3-bet light and can just fold most of your range when it does in fact occur. Most people I play with are A LOT more attached to their stacks than I am- they know it and I know it (and they know that I know it). They start the pot controlling process very early/preflop.

Also it sounds like maybe you are opening too wide in ep. That's a huge leak for a lot of excellent post flop players IMO, trying to maximize their flops seen. Sc's are garbage oop, as I'm sure you know... Lastly, never fold to 3-bets when in position (as long as stacks are reasonable and you don't have a real problem hand like A9 or KQ). You get to rep the deck and they rep/have a very narrow range of like TT+ and AQ+ at most.

---

A 3bet pot I just played in 5 10 that kind of got my juices flowing:

I've been opening a ton in a soft game and and have won a lot of pots w/o showdown. I open to 35 in mp with 42. Super short stack calls in the SB, and bb makes it 115 very confidently (I'm pretty sure he has a big pair). I tank and flat and SB flats also with like 50 bucks behind. Bb is a pro tag, very solid, seems like a cool guy, etc. He's been on a massive heater and has run his 600 stack up to like 3500 over the past couple hours. He asks me if I have him covered which tells me he isn't real happy with the spot he put himself in. I don't have him covered, but i have about 2700 behind. Pot is 339.

Flop comes T7:2. SB checks, bb casually bets 185, I take a little time and make it 600. SB ships his 50 bucks, and bb thinks for a while, has the dealer pull in the 185, and then calls the 415.

Turn is the A. Bb checks and I count my stack (2100) and bet 840. Bb folds.

River is the K and mhig, I scoop side pot and main pot.

***Not only do hands like that help boost the chip stack obv, but they also get everyone's attention at the table. No one wants to be put in a bad spot like the one bb was put in, and now they all have another hand of recent proof that I'm a spaztard who doesn't need to have it when he puts 150 bbs in the middle--> they probably won't be 3betting me light any time soon.

That's true. You had my back. You also crushed that thread iirc and also brought some civility to it, like you've done so many times. Now if we could just get you and loco to get along!

S is for "super", as in super loose aggressive, or super tight aggressive...

I too hate bluff-catching/holding on for life oop in bloated pots. My exact preferred line with overpair oop depends on too many variables, but I don't hate donking or c/r'ing or stop and going as options sometimes. I think everything is on the table, and we can always re-exploit them after they exploit us for repping so little. It's also ok to get bluffed sometimes, and check/call flop, check/fold turn should probably be the default IMO (unless we beat some of the hands they'd barrel for value).

You've addressed some of the problems with this discussion. The other glaring issue IMO is that almost no live player truly understands variance or what running even looks like (it takes A TON of hours and a real objective mind to even come close IMO). Almost all the kids you see regging 5-10 or 10-20 right now are on heaters. Most likely though, their luck will run out/it will regress towards the mean and there will be a whole new crop of hotshots next year or soon after. Those who are actually excellent players with few leaks and good money management will however stay in action as long as they keep working on their game and don't run too terrible.

My take is this: live poker used to be a quarter million/year job for the very best players running even at 5-10/10-20. Now it's a 100k/year job, FOR THE VERY BEST PLAYERS RUNNING EVEN.

This gloomy view (I realize 100k/year is good money- I just don't think it great money) is what led me to start looking for other, more lucrative streams of income. That, and the ever-deteriorating work conditions .

I would set goals for hours played, stop loss amounts, etc, stuff you can actually control that will help your bottom line.

For the people who have never played with dgaf:

I will say that one of his best qualities, is the fact that when he and his friend come into the casino, A LOT of people think that they're "action". I honestly think most people have no idea how high of a level he's thinking on. He has always reminded me of Blake Griffin. He kind of has this relentless way of attacking the table, but never seems to lose his cool, or play out of control. He kind of has this blank look on his face a lot of the time, but is always usually intensely paying attention to what's going on. His presence is kind of the opposite of a nerd. Add that to his overall aggression, which is usually the highest at the table, and I think some people just think he's there for the action, and don't realize he's making great folds and adjustments when they have a hand.

I mean, how sweet is it when you're one of the best players in the pool and nobody knows it except for a few of the very good regs? And bad players are trying to play with you cause your 'action'.

The funny thing was, that when he first sat down in one of my regular games, after about an hour I was like "I think this dude is DGAF..." lol. sure enough.

So, one of the first hands we played, I flatted QQ from the blinds, and check called, chk, called, chk folded, on a random board like 659JK or something. Later I told kwansolo about it, and I was like "what the **** am I doing check calling 3 streets to one of the ONLY guys who will always know my range is weakish and triple barrel me every time?" Funny. And here I thought I was being deceptive....

Obviously, you would think that I wouldn't want to be at a table with dgaf, but because he loosens everyone up and because we both get how to keep things light at the table, he's actually great to have in my game.

DGAF:

It's interesting, we have a very similar views on game selection. (and kwansolo being cool as ice).

Lately I've found a lot of the biggest fish to be younger kids who have obviously studied the game, but have huge post flop leaks, fancy play syndrome, and mega tilt issues.

I'll honestly always take a table full of bad/average young regs, a couple old guys, and you any day. It actually might be more profitable for me than a table full of stations, or at a table where it's optimal for me to be the table captain.

One question for the group at large - how long did it take you to realize what DGAF stands for? I have to confess it took a while for me (in fact dawned on me fairly recently).

You sure you got it right?

DGAF - thanks for the time you put into this and your other posts. I really appreciate being able to learn from your experience.

A few questions:

1. What kind of things do you do at the table to recognize you are on tilt/off your A-game? Is it something that you just become aware of naturally, or do you have some kind of process for periodically checking that you are still playing your A-game?

2. I realize it's a broad topic, but can you discuss how you adjust to/exploit your opponents? What I mean is - what kind of info and how much of it do you need to see before you mentally file away 'OK - this guy has tendency X, I am going to exploit it'? Do you wait for meaningful showdown info to confirm before you act/adjust, or do you just go with your first instinct and start trying to exploit and if you end up being wrong re-adjust then?

3. Is poker still somewhat fun, or has it become a grind? I know you referred to this in the OP - but are there still times/aspects of the game when it's exciting and not just a means to making $?

Thanks man. BG? I'll take it!

I think the first step is to think about the game at a very high level. The second step is to make sure no one (except for the very best players) knows you are doing anything besides gambolling. I also don't think beating the game and being good for the game are mutually exclusive. I try real hard to do both, and I feel like I do a lot of the heavy lifting for some of the pros who just sit there and add nothing to the vibe. I'm sure you feel the same way... I mean how short sighted are some of these guys who rub fish the wrong way, calling string raises, refusing to straddle when everyone else agrees, hitting and running, TALKING STRAT AT THE TABLE, etc? Real pros don't do that ****. They know recreational players are the ones who sign their paychecks, and they do everything possible to make sure the recreational players keep poker as their main hobby. The blackjack tables are never too far away...

I'm taking the year off drinking as a prop bet, but buying a round or two at the table is the #1 easiest way to make the game good and fun/preserve the action short and long term. And of course if you are good at talking and entertaining, that does wonders as well.

When I lived in Vegas, one of the longest tenured grinders (and a very cool guy) paid me the ultimate compliment. He said I was the first person he ever came across that absolutely killed the game and at the same time was absolutely great for the game. I took a lot of pride in that, and I think a lot more people at 5-10/10-20 do that now. They are "action" and fun, but they are also playing real hard and putting themselves in profitable spots over and over, many times setting up that one hand where they are going to get all the money.

One of the biggest recreational players in Vegas (plays with Durrr and those guys in private games, plays in bobbys room, etc), was playing 5 10 or 10 20 at the V one night and he and I played some ridiculously huge pot where I scooped with A high (we both had flush draws). I was up to my usual shenanigans that night with jokes and drinks and what have you, and afterwards he gave me his number and said, "text me any time you get a decent size game going." I texted him a lot, and we played a ton of spewy pots and had a lot of fun. Occasionally he would text me and be like "I'm drunk and want to play poker. Set up a game at the Hard Rock." I would make a few calls and an hour later we would have a game going that would last all night.

I always sat deep with this guy and we always gave each other action. We prop bet a decent amount and sometimes I'd flip with him for whatever he was stuck or had left over in chips when he was about to leave. As time went by, he started to realize I was thinking at high level/had a pretty decent edge and he would make me buy 100 dollar bottles of wine, and I could never sit on his left. Those were reasonable requests, and if I ever wanted to get a job in the real world, I'm sure he'd hook me up (he mentioned it to me several times)...

Hiyah, sorry to belabor the being good for the game stuff. It's just such a HUGE opportunity for so many "professionals" IMO.

Donald Gene Anderson-Frankenreiter, ftr.