A+ post

So good

Thanks this post convinced me raising flop might not be bad. My reasoning for not cr flop was mostly I felt I would lose value from every hand < qj, although I suppose I may lose as much value from bad turns. I also felt his betting was very polarizing, possibly not even having aq, although if he had kq he is betting every non a or j turn. In hindsight I like a turn cr better then the flat as I'm still getting some calls vs hands I dominate; I'm not sure if I can rep a hand that turned more outs but I suppose the point to playing deep vs mouth breathers is to at least allow them the chance to do something horrible which I failed to do.

I don't think flatting pre is standard and I would not do it.

I don't really like playing oop deep, so I don't 3 bet this most of the time. I used to auto 3 pretty much every top 5 but then I started getting in trouble (although that was in bigger games).

Against world class players who are actually balanced when stacking 460 bbs (rare af obv) I can get behind not having a 3b oop range- if it's heads up. With 2 people flatting (and you never said anything him being super beastly anyways/it's a 2 5 game), I like 3b pretty wide actually.

It's 2015. What games are people playing in to believe hero can get 500 BIG BLINDS in the middle in a SINGLE RAISED POT by cr bet shove and expect to be called by top pair on a dry board?

Villain would have to be a lunatic (not mentioned in op) or hero would have to have some crazy dynamic (again not mentioned)

But this is the kind of villain to overvalue tpgk+ and barrel some bluffs a non zero % of the time as the aggressor for 3 streets.

That's why I think xc xc xcrai is best here vs this specific opponent.

the one he's playing in. and why is 2015 relevant?

could you explain this?

edit: the no 3bet oop part

There is an old school strategy that when deep and hu and oop against insanely good and aggressive players, you have no 3b range. It keeps you wide and unexploitable post flop and you don't have to burn money balancing your 3b range. A lot of the best hu players used to employ this strat but it has since become outdated...

I can still get behind it though because live is often much deeper than online, and regardless, the guys who used to employ it and now don't have done a ton of work that I haven't...

But this is a 2-5 hand and we are 4-way.

I think that even with infinite stacks, 3-betting non-premiums OOP as part of a sound range shouldn't at all be doing this. In optimal play vs a nemesis, OOP 3-bets with such hands because they are at least as +EV as calling would be*. It's probably the case that OOP's 3-betting range shrinks as stacks approach infinity, but it definitely doesn't go to zero, and choosing to 3-bet 0% for this reason is leaving a lot of money on the table, and not just with JJ+ hands.

* ...or as folding would be. It is possible that optimal play involves 3-betting some 0ev hands, but probably not likely.

I get what you are saying, and I know the top online hu guys have abandoned the old flat your entire range oop strat (Ike talked about it recently in some thread), so yeah, I concede that not having a 3b range hu is a leak in theory.

I'm just saying at most it's a very, very small leak live with super deep stacks against a very specific and small group of players. When you start flatting, your opponent's RIO shoots through the roof until he adjusts- and then he starts missing value. And because you are actually covered on all boards (not just "covered" in the sense of "well I 3bet 54s __% of the time"), you get bluffed way less/you can bluff on way more textures.

There are also a few other really basic benefits to flatting everything oop hu imo. I don't really want to discuss them nor do I want to sell anyone on giving up their 3bet range hu (I loooove when people 3bet me oop hu!), I was just telling OP that I understand why he didn't want to 3b his JJ, but that I think he should- mainly because of the other 2 callers, and partially because his opponent is likely not a wizard-beast.

I said 2015 because the game has changed quite a bit since the boom.

I actually can't remember the last time i saw anyone play for a 1000bb pot in a single raised pot with a single pair.

Villain would have to very very special and OP said nothing about it. Just that he was really loose aggro

And if guys that are giving this advice are playing in games where people are lighting 500bbs on fire with a single pairs in single raised pots then lucky them.

400bbs deep at 2/5 can be a bit misleading tho bc of the large opens and very multiway pots that occur at that level (creating low(er) SPRs). In this example for instance we have a 5x open that is darn near the standard open size af 5/10 which is $30...on top of that we have half the table calling.

I guess another way of putting it is I get stacks in fairly easily at 2/5 up to 300bbs deep but at 5/10 you need to be in a good game, a game that's playing bigger, have a specific dynamic, etc., to get 300-400bb stacks in in single raised pots with villains holding single pairs.

As you can see here we have one standard x/r and sizing will be set up reasonably well for stacks to be in by River.

Getting 4k effective in at 5/10 is much more common then 2k in a 2/5 game capped at 500. 2/5 players in this game just won't call light this deep. At 1k eff I could probably stack aq+ but not much more.

I think this is only true because it's so much more rare to be 2k deep eff in a 2/5 500max game. I've seen absurd stack offs many times for this much when the situation actually arises. About a month ago I saw a guy w somewhat similar description to villain, 5bet jam 3k over $325 4bet in a 2/5 500 max w QQ.

I think you misunderstood my original post, while 400bbs get stacks in more commonly at 5/10 for various reasons (more 3bets/4bets, game plays way bigger, or by default it is the biggest game in the room therefore some peoples $2K is other people's LOL$6K, etc)...all of that considered I have never seen more insane deep stack offs with single pairs than in 2/5 games.

Re: him not putting in 400bb.

Check raising flop puts him in the situation where he needs to put in 400bb with the widest possible range, lest he be very exploitable. Any other line allows him to check a street or choose how large that the bets will be. If he's not frequently calling you down with Qx, then plainly you need to be check-raise bluffing more against him. Don't really know what else to say. There is certainly a set of frequencies for villain for which call flop and c/r turn would be a higher EV play than c/r flop, but I think, in general, you will get far more credit for a big hand if you take that line, not to mention the fact that he isn't guaranteed to bet turn with Qx+.