Vill - about 40 apparently slag and running very good. My 2nd hand he limp called my 110 from sb. Flop is hu 855r I check and he snap ships ~425 and I tank fold. I asked a reg about hand he said he calls kk+. He also called most c bets for first half of the sess and won them with no showdown. Lately he's been a bit more passive and folds to all my cbets. He's made it20-35 seemingly at random pre and his cbets have been 1/2 to 2/3 pot and capable of barrelling away although only been caught once. This is 500 max buy in and vill has run it to 4k+ in 5 hrs.

Ive been fairly nondescript all my money was from all ins. He prob thinks I'm a little on the weak side. My stack is 2.3k rest of players don't matter.

Pre - vill raise utg+1 to 25 co bu flat I call with jj from sb bb calls.

Flop(125) - qj2r. I check call 100 and we are hu.

Turn (325)- 6 putting be fdraw. I check and tank call 290?

Really just curious on turn and river, assume rest is standard/correct.

Not sure if I understood description correctly but sounds like his pf raise is very wide here and therefore seems like a trivial squeeze this deep, no?

Flop I generally lean towards c/r with this much money behind, although I guess with his barrel tendencies (and no given reads on how he responds to resistance) calling sounds reasonable.

Turn imo we have to raise and give him a chance to spaz/hero you. We have the near nuts with a lot of money behind and this is a perfect example of why deep live games are so profitable; most of these guys are totally clueless on how to play this deep. Id make it ~585 and about 2/3 pot on the river, and wouldn't be surprised to get paid fairly often.

Edit: Thinking a little more I do like your line of just flatting flop, as long as we are raising now on the turn.

u should raise at some point. probably turn

I c/r turn as a standard but if I tank flat turn I'm probably checking blank rivers as it's the only way to get all da monies.

3 bet pre is OK he's flatting near 100% but I dont want to play oop. Cr flop is like really, really bad. I def was torn between cr turn small and bomb most rivers, flat and lead and flat and check decide.

This hand seems bad on every street.

I like 3betting pre... For value, for post-flop playability (SPR), and also to clean up our equity (i.e. "JJ plays better heads up" or at least not 6-handed). You say you "don't want to play oop" but you are playing this hand OOP either way.

That said, we have to give his UTG+1 raise at least some credit, because we know he has a limp/calling range here.

Your read that V is barrel happy is pretty important to how we play this postflop. Is he just as likely to barrel in 6-handed pots as heads up? In the hand where he got caught bluffing, was his sizing as large as it is here? I think we have to give his bet more credit because we are multiway and he sized it big. Therefore a flop raise would not be "really, really bad" imo.

As played, we got pretty lucky with the turn card because it doesn't hit our turn value check/raise range and so we can rep pair+fd, fd+sd combos. If we didn't raise flop I think we should def check/raise this particular turn card. Again, he sized it big so pretty sure he has a hand here.

Could you please explain why? It would be more helpful to provide an explanation rather than a blanket statement like this.

pre is fine.

Flop I think I like a flat best with SB and BB left to act. We really want them to continue in the pot with Qx and we're gonna get villain's money with AQ+ most likely regardless of whether we c/r here or on the turn.

Turn call is okay if he really barrels that much, but I think it makes more sense to take control of the pot yourself here. I'd make it 800 and cram most rivers.

Pre is probably a 3-bet, you just take down 16bb a lot and you have a great hand for the flop if you get called. Depending on the stacks of the coldcallers, you might be able to just get JJ in for value against them. I understand why you would call, though.

You should consider leading flop, but I understand checking to exploit relative position here and that choice fits with more of your range. Once he bets, a check raise is absolutely mandatory though, IMO. It's probably an EV difference of 15-25 big blinds from check/call. You just need to stuff money in the pot at every opportunity with middle set when he so frequently has at least a queen.

As played to the turn, you need to check/raise again. The main thing to take away from this hand is that when you flop the most profitable hand in your range (JJ is more profitable than QQ here) this deep, you really just need to fast play it at every opportunity to maximize the probability of the outcome that has you winning all 2300 of his dollars

Hero is SB here, but yeah I agree pre is fine in most live games.

Oops, you're right. That's what I get for posting at 5am when I'm insomniaing . Yes, I just turned insomnia into an adverb.

best part is
slag limps utg

3b pre is my standard but calling is fine
id cr flop
id cr turn

What's villain's opening range? How wide does he continue to a 3bet? Seems like a fist-pump 3bet to me against 'SLAG'.

As played, raise turn.

cr flop is way easier to balance that cr ott

Slag didn't limp utg and balance is useless in 2/5 since I don't play it much, players aren't good enough etc. The hand vill bluffed he sized smaller, and yes he's capable of at least 1 light bet into 4+ players I don't think he considers the amount Players when betting.

You should 3b pre, x/r flop (lead could possibly be better), absolutely have to x/r turn as played. and should have labeled vil as a huge spot after the 855 hand, and yourself one after this hand

Fair enough but even your avg 2/5 mouth breather can fold hands when u make super strong bets/raises in spots where it's hard to have anything but a v strong hand

I c/r turn to around $800 and bombing all rivers.

Think pre and flop are fine.

125 pre

as played:

c/r flop to 350
bet turn 650
ship river

... yes looks super strong but we have a hand with which we are willing to put 500bb into the middle, so we target his value hands instead of playing the man.

.. and turn is a very obvious raise - 840

What do we think he will call a turn raise with that wo uldn't call a raise on a blank river?

Turn raise just saves him all his thousand dollar river bluffs.

not many 2/5 players are just loling and putting in 1k as a bluff otr here

A straight and flush draw, and that is it. While it's super rare for someone in these games to 3 barrell bluff this big, I have faith this guy is the exception.

For all those who think flop is a cr, what hands do you think vill calls flop and a turn bet with? Also how often do you think vill bet/folds flop vs bet flop/turn when I flat?

He bet 100 into four players. The board is dry. I'm pretty sure he likes his hand a lot and I would expect your fold equity check raising flop to be nearly zero. Sure, he's likely to bet the turn with his range, but you still risk getting a check through with hands like KQ QT Q9 etc that would certainly be calling a c/r and then some.

You also risk getting bad turn cards for action, AKQJT9 all hurt your chances of getting value from some parts of his range. There's a reason holdem solvers fast play hands like this nearly 100% of the time.


On the turn, basically the same arguments apply. He's obviously calling a c/r a huge amount of the time, only this time you can't count on the river bet as often. Against KT/T9, Qx, or a flush draw, you would MUCH rather c/r turn than c/c turn. Probably even against KK+, since so many rivers (AKQJT9, flush) cause overpairs to check back.

Another thing is that a big problem with slowplaying hands like this is that it sometimes results in you turning or rivering a hand that doesn't slot well into c/c or c/r ranges. For example, if the turn is A/K/9/8, it's kind of dubious to c/r with these stacks even though your hand is good a huge amount of the time. At the same time, it is giving up a lot of EV not to c/r there. Same for if you called turn and the river completed the backdoor flush. You will basically be forced to c/c the river in a spot where you beat the large majority of his range. In that spot you would much rather have your range split between 30-60% equity calling hands and 90+% equity raising hands (flushes) so you never waste value. Having a 70-80% equity hand there is generally a bummer because it usually means you could have won more money with an alternate line.

You're suggesting we should never have a flop value c/r range here, which is fine I could be potentially convinced of that. But when you say a c/r would be really, really bad it seems a bit ridiculous to me, considering we literally have THE nut value c/r hand here.

I'm surprised you expect a fold from him so often to either a flop or turn c/r. I expect him to continue otf most of the time with all Qx, 109, K10, KK, AA, probably AK, and obviously all 2pairs and sets. 2/5 slags don't like folding too much, especially when they have something kinda good.

The read that he barrels a lot is of course the main counter to the idea of a flop c/r. That combined with the fact that we have 2 players behind leans me slightly toward just calling the flop, but i think it's very close.

As stated by most I think turn is a no-brainer c/r. I expect him to give up most bluffs otr and also check a lot more value hands that could get suspicious vs a turn raise.

EDIT: and +1 to Renton's above post