$1/$2 Social Club (no rake) , 9 handed. Some tables pre-flop raises can be up to $15/$20 on this table it's $10 or $12 several short stacks, many with 100 bigs, you're allowed to buy in up to $400 . So this game plays like somewhere between a $1/$2 NL and $2/$5 NL.This table was rather soft.

No one bullying or being aggressive. I had just made a huge raise with a set of K but never showed, so I think I had an aggressive image (a bit.)

Villain was playing rather snug, he had me covered and the rest of the table has $200, $300 stacks. I have $600.

limp lp
Villian on button raise to $12
SB with KK (Hero) I make it $35
limper folds
Villain raises to $100

Hero?

I'm a tournament player and KK at this live cash table in this situation, I'm confused. tx!

Here's my thought process:

You said the dynamic was fairly soft, Villain's large stack can allow him to perceive this in the same way, particularly as he has a comfortable chip-lead. From what you've said, it sounds like an initial isolation and subsequent 4-bet to throw you off your re-stealing range. However, your hand is too strong to fold here imo. You have blockers to AK which means you're only losing to the remaining 6 combinations of AA.

Hell, it's possible he has KK too. QQ is obviously great for you, as is JJ. To me it would seem more logical to push here and get calls from a hand he's repping like AQ, JJ, AK and any other pair which isn't AA. Your aggressive image is in your favour as he can put you on worse. Regarless, it's too strong to fold and you're only beaten by one pairing of hole cards. Hope this helps!

Yeah I'm with Feldheimer1 here, put in the 5 bet, I don't think you have to shove your remaining stack, make it $250 to go, that still leaves you with a decent stack if for whatever reason you decide to fold to a 6-bet jam from V. If V jams, I think you have to call, if he has Aces so be it, chalk it up to a cooler.

Make the initial 3bet larger - at least 40.

As played, I don't like stacking off here for 300bb. I'm not that happy about it but I probably call and check to him on the flop. I would do the same with AA or QQ.

There will be 200 in the pot and we'll have 500 left in effective stacks.

I know this is button vs SB violence but without a history of aggro play, his hand is weighted heavily to AA, KK or AKs and we have blockers to KK and AK . Other hands will typically just call the raise to 35 preflop.

If stacks were only 150bb, this would be a slam dunk 5-bet jam preflop.

Have you been 3betting? Has anyone else? Have you been more aggressive overall?

If you are planning to get stacks in, you can 5bet/call or just call and check/raise any non-A flop.

I like a 5bet to $225, but I might fold to a shove because we have AK blockers and a lot of snug players won't shove AK, anyway, or QQ.

Tough spot.

This. 4-betting at a table lacking aggression is almost certainly QQ+/AK and QQ might even be optimistic. Plus by raising/GII you will definitely get called by AA and he may be able to let go of QQ to the 5-bet.

The problem with flatting is what do you do on flop? Are we set-mining? W/o a K, do you bet/fold, check/call, check/raise?

I'm fine if he lets go of QQ to the 5bet. There is enough money in the pot, and we'll still be OOP on flop.

I think it makes more sense to check/shove a low or paired board flop (T82, QQ4, JJ8, etc) than to shove (or 5-bet ) pre-flop for 2 reasons:

1) We're more likely to get calls from QQ and the less expected JJ, especially after V puts more money into the pot on the flop.

2) We get another chance at a live read of the villain to better discern his range.

The disadvantage is that we allow a JJ/QQ/Ax hand to catch up but I think the trade off is worth it. We are screwed against AA either way (although if he hits a set of Aces and we don't set up we can actually get away from our hand).

So you are folding on an A flop? Are you bet/folding or check/folding?

I get the call pre, but only if I plan to gii on any low run-out, which it seems as if you are, but I'd hate to see an A or Q!

Probably check/folding to this type of passive player as he should be scared of an A if he has a lower pp. Yes I agree that aces and queens (w/o a king) are bad for the flat pre line, but think the other flops (which are the majority) are better for the flat pre line and give us a much better chance to stack QQ,JJ, and a frisky AK.

There will be 200 in the pot and 500 in effective stacks I'll be weighting his range towards AK/AA and a small proportion of random spew (A3s?). With our flat call villain needs to worry that we have AA or KK, are incapable of folding and he needs to play accordingly.

I am not so worried about a Q-high flop giving him a set. People don't hit sets often, they rarely 4-bet QQ or JJ into a tiny pot like this and if anything I view the Q as a blocker. I am mainly worried about an A high flop.

If the A doesn't come, I am literally going to watch what he does on the flop and decide whether I want to:

C/R jam the flop
Call e.g. a bet of 80 into 200 on the flop, then check/call a jam on the turn.
Call a bet on the flop then check it down

Our pre-flop call is pretty strong. Sometimes that will freeze the action. It's just not that easy for this player, who has been playing snug, to pick this spot to commit 300bb. If he was spewing with a non-premium hand, sometimes they'll wave the whote flag after our pre-flop call and check it down.

I hope we didn't induce a light 4-bet with our min-raise preflop.

The stack sizes are particularly awkward. If effective stacks were 300 or 800, it would be easier to play.

make it 50 pre

as played:

flat the 4bet and don`t auto stack of.

50 pre

As played call the 4! and x all flops

After his 4bet. I make it $250. He shoves.

Could you tell us how long you and villain have been at the same table during which you've seen him play snug?
Can you tell us about the hand where you raised big with the set of kings?
Other than the fact that hero's initial 3bet could have looked like a resteal, is there any other reason to believe villain think's we could be 3betting him light?

What did he have?

At my tables Vs don't 4! stack-off pre without exactly AA/KK.

I think we need to winch 'em up and make a decision now. I'm not a fan of putting 1/6 our stack in to eval the flop when we're not really going to get more (useful) info.

I'd probably let it go to a snug unknown this deep. (To be clear, if we had around 100 BB or so, 99% of my brain is going to watch TV while the other 1% handles the routine jam & double-up/stack-off.)

If I don't want to do make our decision now, I'd 5b to 175 (basically a minraise) and fold to a jam. If V just called, it's all going in on the flop.

I hate calling to eval the flop. If we're going to commit if no ace comes, let's just commit now. More than 75% of the time no ace is going to come. If we're going to call and fold to further aggression, let's just fold now. We're OOP and checking tends to invite the aggression we're going to fold to.

With reads, I may well take a completely different line. But we're just guessing here and we can't really identify a single advantage we have. We're OOP. We don't have reads on V. We're not even sure our hand is better than his range. KK is the second best hand in poker. But it's our hand vs. his range, position, and skill that matters.

Gross spot. I'm with the others in that I would have flatted the 4! and taken a flop.

As it stands now, I think we have to fold. I know to some it seems utterly insane to 5!/fold, but 300 bigs deep against a tight 1/2 player; what is he ever 6! jamming that isn't AA? There's 1 combo of KK remaining, and 6 combos of AA. If his 6! jam range is wider than this then he's not as tight of a 1/2 player as you think he is. I sigh fold and preserve the other $350 in my stack.

Agree that it's a gross spot. Just fold and move on. For heaven's sake never show!

IMO, a snug player usually doesn't make it $100 after a 3! to $35 with AKo & certainly not with QQ. If you had 3! to $50 as recommended, he would have probably made it a minimum of $125 & probably $150 if he had KK+. If it's AKs & KK+ he has ~68% equity with 11% of that a tie. If you flat the $100 & flop comes K72, are you going to make any money vs. his AA?

He may be playing the player, or, he may have it. You're OOP. So what's it going to be? Do you feel lucky?

Johnny Chan knows how to muck KK preflop.

I wouldn't have 5-bet, but I can't find a fold after putting in $250. It's $350 to call to win $1200, so almost 3.5-1. you need 4-1 to profitably call if you know he has exactly AA. We know very little about this Villain, and I've seen enough random spazz in my time that we have to give him at least a few non AA combos and call it off here.

We're only winning 850 (his 600 and our 250) so we're getting only about 2.5:1. That's still tough to fold given that we don't have any reads on V's.

If he's doing this with KK+, AKs, we're getting the right price to call with 32% equity. Add any QQ or spazz and it's pretty clear.

@Checkov, you have to be careful with 5b sizing. If you put in too much, you're effectively committed. That's not necessarily a problem, but you should be intending that when you do it. As long as you know exactly what to do if he jams, it's fine. My sense is that's not what happened here.

Anyway, our 5b has basically put us in a guessing situation. V might have us crushed with KK+. We might have a thin call if he's adding some lighter jams. We might have a trivial call if he'll do this with QQ+

At this point, I think calling and jamming have pretty similar EV. Make a soul read or flip a coin.

The key decision point came on the 4b. We could commit (in which case our sizing was fine); we could fold; or we could 5b/fold. But then we have to 5b small so that we don't end playing guessing games for roughly 0 EV.

@Case2, Damn! You are willing to squeeze the thinnest of value! We are talking about a 3.65% overlay when V is doing it with AKs along with KK/AA. We should be able to read a spazz almost always & QQ from a snug player is grasping at straws IMO.
Also, that 32% equity include 11.2% in ties, so we win the pot 26.67% of the time.

It's not an auto-muck for me, but I need some kind of a read to lead me to believe.

Did you subtract all the rake & tip?

Hopefully, V believes in the mantra "AK is meant to be raised pre, not called with," and we are in the lead.

I didn't subtract rake and tip, though on this scale I suspect they're not significant.

As you say, it's really thin to call for some assumptions about V. In other words, it doesn't matter (from an EV perspective) which you do. It clearly does matter from a variance perspective. That's up to each individual to determine their tolerance.

I think I would probably have let this go to an unknown this deep.

But once we put another 250 in, the decision has changed completely. Now we're getting 2.5:1 on a call and we might well be either roughly even or ahead. Thus the importance of thinking that through before we put the chips in.

Counting cards at blackjack, 3% would be a wet dream. I haven't done the math, but I'm guessing if I could get 3% on all the money I put into pots I'd be pretty happy with my win rate.

I'd been at the table about 20 to 30 minutes. Villain had the biggest stack, but was being very timid, not stealing, not raising. I was expecting him to.

In the hand I had the previous KK (not with Villain) , I'm in position against two limpers, I raise, they call, on the flop comes K89 DD and I had no D, there's a good size donk and a call, I make a big raise and they go away. That was really the only hand I showed aggression thus far. And did not show my KK.

There is no rake at this table, its a social gaming club. I tip $5 per hour.

Could not discern whether he was thinking I was 3b light or not. Flip a coin was going on in my head.