Some details in this hand maybe off, as I didn't take notes at the time it was played, but all important things should be right.

You can straddle from any position in this game. The player to the left of the straddler will act first preflop.

Effective Stacks: 1130
Villain (HJ) is a supposed pro who is a big winner in this place. Several people told me that he crushes 5/10, but for some reason is playing 2/5 today. He looks around 30, has headphones on, and is wearing a PPC Aruba shirt. I've been at the table for about 3 hours with him. He has the biggest stack and is playing laggy, raises a lot preflop, 3bets more than anyone at the table, and is overall very aggressive.

Not sure what he thinks of me. He 3-bet me once or twice, and I folded. One memorable hand was, when I raised pre with AJo, he flatted in position, heads up to the J high flop, I c-bet, he calls, I ckeck-raise the turn, he folds.

Action:

Button straddles to 10.
Blinds fold
Folds around to me, I open to 40 with red JJ from mp.
Fish to my left calls.
Villain is next to act in HJ, makes it 165.
I call
Fish folds

(387) Flop: 379
I check
Villain bets 215
I call

(817) turn: 6
This is a spot where I got a little lost. What do I do? Check-fold, check-call, check-raise, bet-call, bet-fold, shove? I have 750 left, which is less than a pot sized bet. I felt that I was doing ok vs villain's range at the moment, however I wasn't sure about his barreling tendencies, and I thought that if all the money somehow gets in on this street (by me betting, or by me calling), I'm beat about 99% of the time. I thought there was a possibility that he will check back if I check, but I had no clue about the chances of that happening, and even if he checks back the turn, the wide spectrum of nasty river cards along with me being oop, basically guaranteed that I was to get owned. I also thought that I'm too deep to get it in with a hand as weak as jacks on this turn, and wished that I had less money.

So I decide to commit a sin. I decide to bet-fold the turn. By doing so, I shorten my stack by the amount that I will leave myself with. I also create an image that I'm pot committed (and no one has to know that I'm not ). If villain comes over the top, I will know that I'm beat 99%, and have 2 outs with one card to come, and an easy fold.

After some deliberation, I donk the turn for 350. Vaillin looks a bit confused and starts tanking. He asks me what I got left, I move my hand from the chips I'm shuffling and calmly say 400. He tanks a bit more, and than calls.

(1517)River: 4
I check. Villain pauses, and after a few seconds says all in with uncertain voice, pushing out a stack of chips in the middle. My plan to shorten my effective stack didn't work. I was expecting to win the pot on the turn, or to get shoved on (on the turn). Having to make a decision on the river wasn't really my concern. Hating to make snap decisions, I stared at the ceiling for a few seconds. I counted the pot, and calculated my odds. I asked myself if according to my turn plan I should now fold, since I've committed all the chips I was planning to commit with this hand. The answer was no.

The difference between turn and river was that, if I got shoved over my turn bet (that looked pot committing), I had 2 outs, with one card to come with a 99% certainty, so even tho I would have to call 400 to win 1900, I wasn't getting the odds to chase my 2 outer. However, when I checked the river, and villain shoved, I no longer had a 2-outer, I had a bluff catcher. And even tho I'm still getting the same odds, the chance of me having the best hand greatly increased. Even tho I no longer had my 2 outs, I had a villain who for some weird reason didn't go all in on the turn, and is all in now all in on the river, after I had checked, and the club flush and a gutshot got there. You would have to use some exceptionally flawed logic to not shove the remaining 400 with QQ, KK, AA on the turn, and to shove it now on a club river. However, it was possible, thin value bets, gotta get payed, etc, etc, etc... I also obviously couldn't discount the possibility of him making a flush or a straight on the river. But here is the key part. Even though I thought I was beat most of the time here, getting almost 5:1 was enough to bluff catch comparing to getting 5:1 to chase 2 outs with one card to come on the turn.


I take my eyes of the ceiling and look at the villain, his chin is tucked in to his neck, he is not moving, and breathing rather heavily.
I call 400..

What was ur read on the ceiling?. My read from ur post is u were good, idk.

hard to play oop against this guy... fold or 3 bet pre i think

you mean 4bet?

definitely 4ball pre and get it in


as played, i just c/jam turn because he's going to be semi bluffing a ton still and a lot of his hands picked up equity on the turn that have no showdown value when u flat 3ball pre oop and c/call flop.

Against a LAG like that I prefer to get it in sooner. I like 4-betting pre, or a c/r on flop/turn against that kind of player. While pulling the Johnny Chan play has its place and time, I don't think your stack size is at all fitting for it here. I know the "I bet half my stack on the turn to rep that I committed" play might work sometimes, but it just puts you in such a tough spot because a decent player might see right through that and know that you are playing scared. And indeed, regardless of villain's hand, you will have a hard decision otr, especially after you check.

I really don't like how this hand played out, your stack size ott limits you to so few plays, a c/shove would seem much more fitting here. As played, I probably call and hate life, getting 5:1, hoping he has something like 98s/87s (most other draws made it).

Playing scared is the last thing that I was doing. I was just looking for the
most profitable way to play the hand. I had no problem shoving turn, but like I said I was only getting called by better hands. How often does villain come over the top of my turn bet with a hand that's worse than mine? My estimate was close to 1%. How often does he just call and I get to play the river? I had to guess very rarely, as he will either fold or shove turn ~90% of the time. That was basically my logic. I was gonna save 400 if I was beat.

To all who say 4bet pre, are we turning jacks into a bluff and push the fish out of the pot? Or do you really think he stacks off with enough worse hands for us to profitably get it in?

no

we're 4balling because it's really ****ty to play OOP (as evidenced in this thread) vs an thinking aggressive player in a 3bet pot with a great but vulnerable hand.

we're not bluffing here. A lot of the time he outright folds (and we make $165), sometimes he gets it in with much worse, a lot of the time we get it in flipping, sometimes we get it in behind.


I love getting it in and flipping for 100bbs. I think it sends the right message vs lags when you're oop and it almost always makes them less likely to 3bet you light in the future in my experience.

Tough spots are ****ty, tough opponents are ****ty, playing poker is ****ty.

lol

lol, really?

lol messages.

Does he ship AK when you 4b?

Also, when someone says it's "****ty" to flat a 3b oop against an aggro opponent with JJ and a spr of like 2.5, they are really saying it's "unprofitable" or "suboptimal" (which no one on 2p2 wants to hear).

Anyways, if he only flats AK when you make it 385 or so (and he doesn't flat AA or KK) iyo, 4b/fold seems best. If he ships AK along with his bigger pairs, I think you should just fold. And if he has a narrow 3b range (doesn't sound like he does) or he is fit or fold or a tell box post (doesn't sound like he is), flatting seems like the play. 4b/call seems spewy any way you look at it.

I love guys who wear poker shirts at the table.

1. Turn is a check raise all in.
2. Easy check call on river.

I'm usually with you on most things but I really can't seem to follow your logic here. Against someone that has 3-bet so much, that you described as very laggy, why not 4-bet here with a hand that is already hard to play OOP (let alone against a LAG)?

If you want to "mix it up" (which I don't like the way people define it), then I guess you can cold call pf. The flop that came out is pretty good for JJ, but your SPR isn't that high. You kinda have to decide otf if you think your hand is best or not, and if you do think so, you have to get it in either otf or ott. I don't see how you are ever really considering saving $400 otr

I've only played with him for ~3hrs, but I'm pretty sure he has a polarized 3betting range. I would imagine he 3bets QQ, KK, AA, AK for value, an bunch of random stuff such as suited aces and connectors. Does he flat a 4bet or 5bet ship AK? I don't know.

4bet/ folding is turning JJ into a bluff, which I hate. 4bet/ stacking off is even worse, bcs we are giving him our stack when he has better, occasionally flipping vs AK, and getting him to fold his garbage which he will barrel for at least 1 or maybe more streets.

Why put ourself in a tough spot, and play a good opponent oop with JJ? Why don't we 4bet and give him our stack. Or 4bet and push him off his trash that he would barrel off. Let's force him to play pefectly and send him a "message".

seems like you got all the answers before you made the thread

but you still played the hand horribly

calling the 3bet is the standard play for sure, but it really allows you to get owned. it isnt hard for a good player to play perfectly in position, so why test him?

im starting to think this is a fold which sounds super nitty but im starting to realize just how important position is in games 5/10+ (or v. good opponents)

I agree, fold is for sure better than 4b, if we're gonna be this scared to play this guy oop. Folding is at least neutral EV.

You would fold JJ pre to a 3-bet of the guy described above in OP? What hands would you play against him then?

What??? You're playing 110bb deep against a LAG w/JJ. Your folding percentage to a 3-bet should be....zero.

this

4 bet pre and its not even remotely close
this isnt some 70 year old whose 3 betting range is aa and aa
as played cr the flop
you cant seriously flat with monsters oop against good players who 3 bet a lot
youre going to get owned so much and its a pain in the ass to play against them
youre letting this guy just dictate how every single hand is going to be played
do you really wanna keep getting 3 bet all night?

the message is he doesnt get to 3 bet you all night and leave you playing guessing games
people like this HATE when you play back at them
it takes them out of their comfort zone
instead people just raise get 3b and fold, or raise get 3 bet and c/f most flops, until they finally smash the flop at which time they usually make no money bc the guy isnt an idiot and realizes that someone who has been passive all night is coming to life
i mean for ****s sake a lot of the time you arent going to like the board you get for jacks, sometimes when you do hes outflopped you and youre still unsure how to play the hand a time where you actually get a good board for your hand

you say he might barrel his garbage
well what are you doing when he barrels garbage on boards that suck for your hand? you want to b/f the turn here, but think he cant get you off jacks on ****ty boards?
wishful thinking-maybe youll flop a set and hell triple barrel
otherwise good luck

you likely have the best hand pre and youre oop
if you want to be his bitch all night then just flat his raise pre and fold the best hand a lot of the time

a fold is terrible
if youre gonna fold jacks to someone pre who 3 bets a ton when youre effectively 110 blinds deep pick up your chips and go play roulette where you have a better chance of winning
might as well give the guy a hand job on the way out

RAWKETS

Ok, despite villain's tendencies, 4 bet shoving or anything other than 4 bet clicking it back is not good here. Just as we don't want to play OOP against good competent opponent, we also don't want to turn our hand into a bluff. Depending what his read is on you, if you 4 bet pre he is flatting QQ, KK for deception and AA for deception, or 5 bet shoving KK, AA, or AK a good amount of the time which puts you in a terrible spot.

Flatting pre is best imo, but you have to decide very early how much of his range is weighted towards random suited connectors and small pairs (which might have you crushed) and big pairs (still crushed) + the random KQs AKs etc. which you're beating. I would probably c/c flop. c/f turn but hope he checks behind and get to the river for as cheap as possible...granted a really good opponent in this spot will barrel turn and river virtually regardless of holdings because it's a good spot and he can define your range pretty easily.

so basically dont have a 4 betting range for a dude who 3 bets a ton? lmao
or even worse have that range be aa and kk

people are acting like they get to see the guys whole cards for the entire hand

just keep giving free cards to a guy who can easily outflop or outturn you- and even if he doesnt can make you think he did- recipe for success in poker

honestly ive played with some really good lags
some way better players than me
and im ****ing amazed at the hands people just flat them with with pre, and relative monsters they lay down postflop to them
its even funnier when its often the same people who wont fold tptk to the guy who hasnt raise pre or bluffed since 1993 without aces, but they think THIS is the moment that guy has been waiting for to bluff that fold to good lags who are running them over