you are the first person to mention x/c on the river. I obviously had a bit of bettor's remorse after I was raised, which is one of the reasons I posted this hand. at the time, I thought that I was repping a missed heart draw well enough to justify a bet against this Villain.

I honestly thought that he would call with any set and sometimes with Kx, but check behind with a good chunk of that range if I checked.

Check call if you hate value. Extremely results oriented advice

I disagree, sometimes the induce button is your best friend. Still, I would have started launching on the flop. As played I call. Vill doesn't ever need to bluff river to make this a profitable call.

So you think that this Villain is raising a lot of his sets for value on the river. I find that somewhat implausible.

c/r flop

Does this work 450 BBs deep? I feel like a c/r makes a lot more sense if I will be a good position to ship if Villain 3 bets. But stacks are too deep for me to ship if Villain 3 bets.

I feel like you face a 3b pretty infrequently. And if it happens, it really isnt the end of the world, you can continue.

I want to think about how this plays out if I c/r flop.

If Villain calls, do you lead on all non-pairing turn cards? I guess so.

If Villain 3-bets, I assume that you call rather than 4-bet. Do you still lead most turns or do you c/f unless you complete your draw? If you call a 3-bet, and make your heart draw, how often do you expect to get another bet out of Villain on the turn?

The thing to always remember is the other guy is just as deep as you are. He can only 3b two hands here without spewing. We will call if he does in fact show up with the miracle part of his range- and we will still have good equity. He's not a maniac. Most maniacs aren't even really maniacs- not in spots like this. You have the 2nd and 3rd nuts right in the heart of your range, you have a clean, winning image, etc.

Button decides if we call or raise imo. If he folds, we call. If he calls, we raise. His presence is amazing for our c/r.

This is a good point. I had no reason to think that Villain was spewy.

Your description is of someone who vbets thin and wants to play bigger, so I'd be kinda surprised if he doesn't raise river with sets and maybe some 2p hands hoping he looks fos or whatever. As played I can't imagine folding river to be correct, especially if he has any kind of creativity (so hard for you to have an 8). That being said, if you genuinely believe folding river is a valid consideration then cc river is a good option as I would expect him to bet pretty much any river even a lot of completed draws. Just out of curiosity do you lead with flushes?

Lol actually had this in my first reply but got erased and was too lazy to retype everything. The great part about being this deep is if we get 3 bet we don't have to fold. I know it seems kinda spewy to gii this deep but as dgaf said we have fantastic equity against anything and while its not common I have seen people this deep get stubborn (I always have a draw here anyways) or just decide to gamble with 67h/56h or whatever. I know villian isn't a maniac but that doesn't mean he is always or never getting it in light (or 3bet folding?). Sets are hard to flop, if he's got one then we are on a slightly bad part of the flip and if not run it twice or just hit the 4.

100pct this. I like the river lead....as played it seems like a really odd spot for him to show up with a random bluff. That being said, its hard for him to have an 8 and a lot of players don't put in a raise here with 8x without the 8h so flip a coin i guess.

I think it unlikely that Villain would raise his lower sets or any two pair hands for value on this river. It's hard to for me to have an 3 or an 8 here, but I can think of at least six combos that should not be shocking to him ( A3hh, A8hh, 68hh, 78hh, 89hh, and 8Thh).

I guess the thing that bothered me at the time about c/r on the flop is that I felt like it was committing me to barreling on the turn, and probably the river, when I missed, against a Villain that was liable to be sticky.

I guess my thinking was that there was enough chance he has air in this spot, or believes he has little showdown value so raise gets you off any missed ace high draws, or paired drawing hands that he thinks you turned into bluff and would otherwise win.

This is only one possibility of what he might be doing and may be a small possibility. He may also be raising with what he believes is value, however thin. Or he may have an 8. I just believe 8 is unlikely given action relative to other holdings and would be unlucky for you if he showed up with it. Given that and 3 to 1 on the call, I would call.

My thinking is that barreling turn if you miss still looks really strong and continues your story of a big hand. And you don't have to bet river if you miss. I feel barreling off here is a line that should be based on judgment regarding board texture w respect to his range at turn and river and whether you sense any weakness.

I think the overall thinking tho is that with the actual equity of your hand on the flop, you don't actually need that much fold equity to make the play profitable.

Haven't followed all the responses but I think this hand makes for good discussion so I'm gonna spew some more.

A) if you c/r flop you should barrel turn but river is for sure tbd
B) if your range is protected (I think it is here) you should not be paying off a river raise
C) I like smaller on the river (but since u went big, snap fold and sigh IMO)

Spew all you want. Your input is much appreciated. I'm glad that people found this hand interesting.

I agree with all three points, although I don't believe that Villain is folding many hands on the turn that he is calling a c/r with on the flop.

With V's river raise, do you believe V was attacking the pot with 88, 9h8h or a stupid hand like k8, and backed into the straight? and does your thinking stem from the belief, in your exp, that that sizing on the river basically discourages most bluffs over hero's original raise?

I think OP played flop and turn fine. Check raising flop is bad, turn would be really really bad. I think you can have near zero check raising range in this spot and you won't be giving up too much.
I would probably donk river smaller in a vacuum, but I wouldn't mind having this hand in my checking range on river either.

I get what you're saying but I think in a spot where we have every single two pair combo in your range that we probably are giving up slightly too much by not having a cr range here. If villain was world class I'd probably approach the spot differently but not sure if thats the case or not here.

Eh, I think not c/ring is actually pretty bad. Especially against someone good.