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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 07-16-2012, 06:31 PM   #1
jimmyvjv13
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10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

Bellagio 10/20/40 mandatory straddle. Game is insanely aggro and I've seen over 10 10k pots in 2-3 hours.

V1: Spikey haired mid-40s Italian dude with headphones who thinks he's the ****. Describes his thought process after every hand so clearly not a pro. Not terrible post but not good either, limps a lot of hands, even in EP so pretty weak. 5k

V2: Doesn't speak english, at table with another euro who plays super loose / aggresif, but V2 seems tight and solid. Haven't seen him get out of line yet and is pretty. 6k

Hero: Hasn't shown many hands, and has LAG image. 15k.

V1 limps MP1, hero limps behind Q4ss from CO, V2 limps button, blinds complete and straddle checks.

Flop As6s8s

V1 leads out 160, hero tanks and before I can act, button makes it 380 to go. I ask what happens if I call / raise, dealer says if I raise buttons action is nullified and if I call the button has to raise. I look at sb and he laughs, I try to keep a straight face as I just call (i normally wouldn't do this but V1 is pretty bad and almost definitely won't realize what's happening lol). so i call, V2's raise stands, folds around to V1 who grabs a stack of chips and flings them into the pot without counting and the raise is to 1100. Hero?

Kind of a ****ty spot here in a limped pot, I think I'm PROBABLY ahead of V1's range and I want to get all his money but I could easily be dead here vs button and if I show aggression I think he folds everything I beat especially after what I did by just calling the flop knowing his raise was binding. Curious as to what most people think the best play here is to maxamize value vs their ranges.

Last edited by jimmyvjv13; 07-16-2012 at 06:57 PM. Reason: I'm in the CO
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Old 07-16-2012, 06:37 PM   #2
mike dexter
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

It's a raise or fold pre for me.
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Old 07-16-2012, 06:59 PM   #3
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

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Originally Posted by mike dexter View Post
It's a raise or fold pre for me.
why? The blinds are like never raising and button hasn't been ISOing at all? I get to see a flop deep in pos vs the worst player at the table.

I isolate this sometimes, especially vs this type of player but Eric Liu is in the straddle and I think he 3 bets a ton here when I iso. Should have said that in the OP...
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:39 PM   #4
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

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Originally Posted by jimmyvjv13 View Post
why? The blinds are like never raising and button hasn't been ISOing at all? I get to see a flop deep in pos vs the worst player at the table.

I isolate this sometimes, especially vs this type of player but Eric Liu is in the straddle and I think he 3 bets a ton here when I iso. Should have said that in the OP...
Because you aren't the button and your hand sucks lol. It's not a good multiway holding as it carries a ton of rio and it hardly ever makes the nuts. If I'm gonna play it, I want to iso and have initiative, and most importantly- i want to have the button. If my image is **** such that I'm going to get 3b super wide, I'd just muck it. Though I wouldn't worry too much about a good, deep player 3betting me oop no matter what. That's just a losing play (3b oop deep), and you should welcome it from anyone IMO.
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:41 PM   #5
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

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Originally Posted by mike dexter View Post
. That's just a losing play (3b oop deep), and you should welcome it from anyone IMO.
rotfl
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:46 PM   #6
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

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rotfl
Why are you rolling on the floor laughing man? You think 3b oop deep vs a good player is smart?

Please educate (after you catch your breath ofc).
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:52 PM   #7
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

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Originally Posted by mike dexter View Post
You think doing anything oop vs a good player is smart?
you see the logic?

Just b/c its hard to execute properly doesn't mean its a 'bad play'

regardless; referring to the OP:

Don't really know from the description of how fishy V1 is, but given how he splashed his 1100, I think there is high chance he's not releasing any flush so I make it like 2350 and not folding to V1. If V2 ships it's obv gross but I don't think that happens often enough to worry that much.

Also, I don't see merits of flatting as I think V1 is not folding and if V2 seems "tight & solid" we're not making more $ from him in limped pot

Last edited by krolewicz; 07-16-2012 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 07-16-2012, 08:14 PM   #8
mike dexter
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

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you see the logic?

Just b/c its hard to execute properly doesn't mean its a 'bad play'
I think keeping the pot manageable and multiway (and not folding out the fish) and deferring initiative is a lot smarter than doing the opposite this deep. A lot smarter...

I don't know if I've played with Eric lui but I doubt he's 3b op from the straddle here too much at all. Prob folding a ton actually if he's good.
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Old 07-16-2012, 08:34 PM   #9
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

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I think keeping the pot manageable and multiway (and not folding out the fish) and deferring initiative is a lot smarter than doing the opposite this deep. A lot smarter...
Um, isn't this exactly what I accomplish by limping behind here?
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:04 PM   #10
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

limping is whatever. is it a losing play in the long run? probably, but you can get way w this kind of stuff live. i agree what your saying mike dexter but i think its fine in this kind of deep stacked aggro game which 10/20/40 at bellagio.is during the series.

i still like our spot with our hand. start w a call. v2 will play pretty straight forward given the preflop action (or the lack of) and how the hands been played out.
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:12 PM   #11
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

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Um, isn't this exactly what I accomplish by limping behind here?
I was talking about being oop and 3b a good player (straddle's perspectie), not ip and 2b a weak limper (hero's perspective). I'd be much happier over limping something connected, or Axs in your spot, something that flops gin and coolers people. Maybe I just think Q4s is garbage and problematic multiway- especially w/o the button.
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:27 PM   #12
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

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why? The blinds are like never raising and button hasn't been ISOing at all? I get to see a flop deep in pos vs the worst player at the table.

I isolate this sometimes, especially vs this type of player but Eric Liu is in the straddle and I think he 3 bets a ton here when I iso. Should have said that in the OP...
This is kind of a key point - if Eric Liu or any other agressive player sees a limp by bad V1, isolation raise by hero and either fold or call by V2 (probably fold) the squeeze 3 bet is almost automatic.

I typed out a bunch of bs about potential ranges for V1 and V2, but hero has no history as stated in OP. You might suspect that V1 is likely not betting out with nut flush (hoping to trap) and V2 may be raising with a variety of hands ranging from sets to flushes to dry KC. I guess the question is whether hero is willing to go broke with second nuts on the flop. I'd probably raise the flop bet even if I lose one or both opponents (if it was just V1 I might smooth call). If I'm called I'm hoping the board does not pair and a fourth club does not come off on the turn
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Old 07-16-2012, 10:06 PM   #13
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

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This is kind of a key point - if Eric Liu or any other agressive player sees a limp by bad V1, isolation raise by hero and either fold or call by V2 (probably fold) the squeeze 3 bet is almost automatic.
Yeah I didn't include it in the OP because it was irrelevant to the spot I was posting for discussion, I didn't think it would turn into a debate about what to do pf where both limping and isoing so are marginal anyways. I 100% play this profitably limping behind, it's not even worth discussing.
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Old 07-16-2012, 10:27 PM   #14
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

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Yeah I didn't include it in the OP because it was irrelevant to the spot I was posting for discussion, I didn't think it would turn into a debate about what to do pf where both limping and isoing so are marginal anyways. I 100% play this profitably limping behind, it's not even worth discussing.
Agreed - I'm virtually always limping behind with this hand in this situation.
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Old 07-17-2012, 12:21 AM   #15
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

pre is fine id actually be a bit worried that V1 has a big hand that he wants to LRR with since he figures one of you guys will try to isolate him (who open limps MP in these games?).

with this action you have V1 prob drawing dead whereas btn is much more likely to have a random Kxss just over limping for the same reasons as you are w/ your Q4ss. however btn of course can have any random 2 spades which he will def calldown all streets if you let him.

so i like calling the 1100 to keep in the btn and prob call any brick turn that V1 bets for the same reasons.
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Old 07-17-2012, 01:18 AM   #16
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

ehhh i kinda disagree with ^^^^^^^^^^^^


if v2 has a brain, he should be raising flop with all his value hands.

I just do whatever looks weak from v2's perspective to get him to call. I think i just raise here.
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Old 07-17-2012, 01:20 AM   #17
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

if v1 is bad, I guess I'm reraising him to 2100, and hoping to stack smaller flush, but your line looks sooo nutted to anyone with a brain. I'm folding to V2 if she ships.
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Old 07-17-2012, 02:20 AM   #18
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

We are not worried about villain 1 here. We are just so ahead of his range. The problem w raising is it gives a chance for villain 1 to fold his smaller flush (hes not a massiv donk/overplayer based on description).

I agree that we are folding if v2 ships after we call. But it's way more likely that he folds and we go heads up on turn. Remember- v2 thought we folded and is just raising v1. His value range will be pretty wide here.
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Old 07-17-2012, 03:17 AM   #19
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

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We are not worried about villain 1 here. We are just so ahead of his range. The problem w raising is it gives a chance for villain 1 to fold his smaller flush (hes not a massiv donk/overplayer based on description).

I agree that we are folding if v2 ships after we call. But it's way more likely that he folds and we go heads up on turn. Remember- v2 thought we folded and is just raising v1. His value range will be pretty wide here.
i think this is perfect.

another reason why i think raising sucks is v2 is pretty deep and id hate to not let him give me more money w/ a worse flush.
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Old 07-17-2012, 12:51 PM   #20
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

In a 6 way limped pot over 100 straddles deep I think we're behind if we get all in on this flop. I'd feel better about it if hero saw them overplaying hands earlier. I'd call to not overrep our hand and proceed with caution.
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:27 AM   #21
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

Are all suited K's automatic limps for V2? V1 limps lots of hands, so could he play AxKs/KxKs/other naked Ks hands like this? The more often he has the Ks, the better you're doing against V2. And does V2 really fold with Js10s/Js9s/super pretty 7s9s/7s5s all the time if you raise over the 1100? If so calling has to be best. Your hand can still look like a set with the right odds to chase, and I think you can get it in profitably on blank turns.
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Old 07-19-2012, 07:49 PM   #22
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

i think call. if V2 jams and V1 calls or folds, we can tank and probably sigh call but i don't see how we get away from this hand. there's too many lower flushes, k high flush draws, 66, 88 they could play this way.

more likely V2 folds but he might call with the bottom of his range getting us an extra bet. expect V1 is leading 100% of his range on the turn after which we can get it in, whereas if we raise now he's folding some weaker hands. so i think call planning to get it in on most turns. what did you do OP?
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Old 07-19-2012, 08:48 PM   #23
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

I thought for a minute and jammed b/c

1) I think that I'm stacking V1 almost every time.
2) I don't think I win another bet or so from V2 more often from flatting / raising small more often than I lose value from spades and board pairs on the turn.

After I jammed I held my breath for ten seconds hoping V2 doesn't snap me off. He tanked for about 2 minutes and folded. V1 waited 10-15 seconds and called. I said "Do you have the nuts?" He said "yes I have the nuts" and my heart sank a little bit. I go "well I can't win so just run it once" to the dealer. I say "Why did you take so long to call with the nuts?". He replies "because I wanted the other guy to call". As I'm saying "wat, he already folded", he turns up his J2ss and I laugh and go "oh, that's not the nuts" and feel like I found 12k on the ground.

Spoiler:
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Old 07-19-2012, 08:57 PM   #24
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

hahahahahahahahahaha omggggg A+ post
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Old 07-19-2012, 08:57 PM   #25
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Re: 10/20/40 2nd nuts in limped pot lots of action

Oh also V2 said he folded 79ss for flush with OESFD

Also turn paired the board.

I think it's fairly close what the best option is, still not sure.
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