Anyone who says China was unethical here needs their brain checked out.

Did you guys miss that China played this guy heads up for 3 hours just shortly beforehand?

There is nothing wrong with China showing up and asking the guy to continue the match, ESPECIALLY if he was only asking for a 2nd game on the side, rather than taking the fish out of the game.

This also isn't tapping the glass because the fish won a small fortune from China heads up that same night, and is likely to see China as just a degenerate gambler who wants to win his money back.

It's not like China just sat down in the game out of nowhere, picked the biggest fish at the table, and asked for HU on the side. I feel THAT is unethical. Asking for someone to continue an earlier HU match (especially while suggesting he also stay in the existing game) is not unethical at all.

The bottom line is that most grinders are selfish and will cry foul at anything that might hurt their bottom line, even if the actions are completely appropriate.

If this was referring back to my comment, what I was talking about is two regs bickering over this question in the poker client chat while the other player is sitting right there. I don't assume that's what happened here, but if that's the way it went down then I think it's def tapping the glass to make a big deal of it in front of the player in question. If it all possible, this kind of stuff should be discussed between regs via PM/IM/Skype or here on the forums.

In other words: I wasn't talking about China asking the guy if he wanted to continue their match, but the whole discussion that apparently ensued between he and Akromaxx (if that dialogue did in fact take place right there on the table).

I don't see this as an ethical consideration, however, and I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do. It's more just my opinion of what's in the best long term interest of any of the regs involved.

I can understand where you are coming from, but i think id be ****ty if i was the akromaxx dude and some reg just jumps in and starts soliciting the fish to play HU.

I think overall its probably bad for the game to be doing that at all, but can understand to a point why you did it, given the recent history

I think it's pretty scummy. You see this stuff live all the time. A fish will leave one table to jump in another game. Then a player from the original game will be trying to get a new game with the fish, often at higher stakes. It looks really bad in a live setting and should be no different when hiding behind a computer, imho.

I don't think it is unethical. I say follow the fish around the room. I've done it live before. I only did it once because all the tables were breaking. It is kind of fun actually. I think that the third person should not have any say on if you want to play heads up with the fish.

Mid- to high- stakes online guys are willing to go pretty far in order to create a positive environment. Take a look at this thread, for example. It's already pretty much settled that it's inappropriate to ask a fish for hu if a game is already running around him. The only reason China is posting is because there's some question as to whether or not this qualifies as a special case. If we removed the back-story, this thread would be much more one-sided. If we then posted it in HSL, it would be a landslide.

I dont really think it should matter whether it is a fish or not really.

Let's say hypothetically say I was a world class reg and played St1ckman every day for 6 months. And we broke even heads up but we both felt we had an edge.

I then join a 6 max game and St1ckman is in it. And I say to him hey St1ckman do you want another table of heads up? Nobody is going to say I am breaking up the game obv and complain and say it is scummy BECAUSE IT WILL HELP THEIR BOTTOM LINE most likely if we are focusing on a heads up game or we may quit that game entirely and it puts them in a better spot.

My thing here is I played this guy for 3 hrs. I join 15-30 game 20 mins after he quits and ask him if he wants another table of heads up. He said no and I said no problem then. Anytime u want to play again let me know. I didn't go there to poach him and "steal him" from the table (as if he was their property LOL). I was playing that game no matter what because it had value. And I thought he may have changed his mind about snoozing and might be be ready to play some more after breaking from the heads up for a bit.

I think it is def scummy if I just hopped in a game and started challenging all the fish to heads up games while not playing and getting them to leave the table and not playing in a game myself.

A lot of people I have spoken with about this on skype AIM have the opinion that one should do whatever is best to help their bottom line.

Everyone has a different set of things which they think are morally ethic and everyone has their own opinion.

No matter how many people say I am right or wrong here I don't think my mind will ever be changed.

I don't think it's unethical especially considering what happened before!

I did see E-Dog tell off a guy who came into E-Dog 1v1 match and sat and asked the guy to play him 1v1. But it's not unethical at ALL. You can ask who you want and what you want to anyone. Land of the free!

there should be a poll to make voting not unethical easier imo

I think some people in the thread are confused on what unethical means. Saying, "it isn't unethical, do whatever helps your bottom line" doesn't make sense.

I don't play online anymore but the live example is relevant. For instance, Bellagio has a rule against baiting players out of one game to play another. But it pretty much is dependent on whether someone is a spot or not (or whether or not someone complains, which its usually too late at that point). If I'm playing Hold Em and a Stud player comes over to me and says, "hey we are trying to get a Stud game going if you are interested", they aren't doing anything wrong.

But if you are playing a 4 handed stud game at a limit that doesn't usually go revolving around a fish and the mix game players come over trying to get the fish to play with them, they are breaking the rule. I'm not sure what the punishment is or how its enforced, but its not allowed and there has been incidents of this lately. It was happeing at no limit quite a bit. They were playing 10/20/40 NL and people shut out of the game were trying to start a 25/50 game and the regulars complained and they stopped running it at the same time.

A winner in my game who I think has been running bad lately has started to do little things lately that would maybe qualify as unethical but that increases his edge. We usually start games in the morning and he will wait to lock up a seat he wants after everyone is seated or move in a shorthanded game that just started when a person joins. I had to have a talk with him. He is a former BJ pro for 25 years and was just thinking in terms of EV. I had to tell him that we all (at least the core or winners who start the game) can do things to improve are edge and don't and it isn't right for him to be the only one to do it. If he kept it up we would all be forced to do the same thing and it would become a circus show getting the game going. I said the 3-4 of us that start the game just have to spread out on the table and let the others that join be the deciding factor on who gets the best seats.

I ate dinner with a 15 year Vegas professional gambler a couple of weeks ago. He said he personally goes through stages on his own ethical guidelines. He said he has been at the point before if another player dropped a chip without noticing and it rolled into a pot he was scooping up, he would take the chip and wouldn't think twice about it. It was interesting talking to him and seeing what his guidelines were compared to mine compared to what I read a lot in the B&M forum. For instance he would never tell a player that was exposing cards that he could see them and continue to take advantage of it. He let me know the couple of people in the room who trained themselves to be able to read flashed cards that we all see all day long but can't decipher. For me, I won't actively try to look at someone's hand but if I see it, I probably wouldn't tell them unless they were elderly. Others will point out a flashed card they saw when someone folded to the whole table.

I think there definitely needs to be a balance between trying to win as much as possible and keeping everything in order so it doesn't turn into what happened in the HS games online. The smaller the community is the easier it is to keep manageable since your only real recourse is shaming. As far as China's specific situation, I can see both of your arguments. I feel like you made the OP as objective and unbiased as possible but if either of you were telling the story to a buddy, I'm sure both buddies would feel their friends were in the right and the other was wrong.

Sorry so long but you guys are just sitting at empty tables anyways

Nice read cpitt

Very underated point that we're prob biased towards China's side on account of it being told by him.

I'd sort of sit on the fence, leaning towards falling off on China's side with the history and the fish saying he's done then coming back. Kind of more acceptable to exploit those that have lied/done something dubious themselves. For instance, I buttoned mrCahs/Mark27 5/Ahsleytehgrinder yesterday and it felt great.

It's all relative to a community though, many non poker playing friends and family hint at their opinion that it's unethical to take advantage of idiots, some of whom are genuinely addicted and playing against their will as it were, in our day to day grind. I'm even inclined to agree, but get over it by assuming 90% of (med stakes) fish are harmless recreational guys and the $ makes it worth the sad cases. And if I didn't take it you lot would etc. etc.

Well my side is exactly how it went down. Otherwise "Akromaxx" would have posted in thread as he challenged me to post this here and I am pretty sure he was lurking as I typed. Pretty sure I know who he is but will leave him anonymous

Not unethical. You didn't suggest he leave the game. You had three hours playing you just beforehand and he left with an excuse and pops up somewhere else (nothing wrong with that, just adds to argument that asking him if he had changed his mind and would like to play hu in addition to game he's now at is fine). If you had sat out and baited or challenged him to leave to play you, it's a different question/answer.

Looks like he has (conveniently) changed his point of view:

(observed today on ipoker). Here is the situation: Akroma sits at a 4max table with a recreational player, when I join and post my blind, this occcurs:

Akroma777xx: rudi u wanna go back to my 1 on 1 table ?
shania23: FCKKK YOU AKORMA
shania23: STOP ANGELSHOOTING LIKE YOU DO IT ALL THE TIME
Akroma777xx: we were playing there just a sec ago
Akroma777xx: u dont even know me
shania23: SO WHAT REMEMBER CHINA AND HOW YOU FKKKKING RAILED AGAINST IT
Akroma777xx: yes and then at 2+2 they said china was right
Akroma777xx: so now I do it too
Akroma777xx: its exactly the same situation
shania23: no they didnt it was 50/50 for public opinion
Akroma777xx: well whatever i dont care what u think
shania23: well that is great, the lone egotistic wolf has spoken
Akroma777xx: oh lol its not even same situation btw
Akroma777xx: i wasnt breaking up a game
Akroma777xx: as there wasnt any yet
Akroma777xx: no point responding though cause i blocked ur chat

Note that they did decidedly NOT play for 3hours before, and note furthermore that Akroma did NOT ask for a table on the side, but he wanted them to go outright back and quit the game I joined.

[x] confirmed angleshooter imo

hof