Hi, I'm a former internet low stakes NLHE MTT grinder. I was only able to play for about 10 months before Black Friday, but during this time I grinded my bankroll from $37 to around $12000, playing about 20 hours a week. My hourly was around low 20s when Black Friday hit and I was still improving. I believed then and believe now I have the skill to succeed at higher stakes both online and live. Being an American, it seems my only real choices are live play.

For various reasons I'd rather not go into, I don't do well in traditional 9 to 5 day jobs. I love playing poker and improving my game and would have moved to Vegas right after Black Friday if my (ex)-wife would have let me. Now I'm finally sufficiently bankrolled and have no one to stop me. I also have degrees in mathematics and computer science as well as some industry certifications that I can fall back on in the unlikely event I bust out. And yeah, theoretically I could make a lot more money with a tech job but, thinking about having such a job 9 to 5 makes me want to pound my head into a wall until I'm unconscious. So, moving on...

I have read all the older threads about moving to Vegas, but since this is a major life decision and many things are changing in Vegas recently (e.g. parking) I feel warranted in starting my own thread about it, and I thank you in advance for advising me.

Anyway, I have saved roughly $24,000 for estimated yearly living expenses, and about $11000 saved (separate from the 24000) for my bankroll.

Now, I did a lot of initial research about number of card rooms, rake formats, and limits spread in Vegas, LA, and South Florida casinos that led me to form a few conclusions. Please correct me if these conclusions are inaccurate.

• South Florida probably has the softest games at 1/2 and probably okay 2/5
• South Florida has similar cost of living to Vegas, possibly lower (I need to research this more). Both areas are much cheaper than LA.
• Las Vegas probably has the softest games for 2/5 and maybe 5/10
• Las Vegas has much better opportunities for game selection than SF, even if low stakes games on average are tougher, due to the high concentration of casinos.
• Los Angeles 1/2 and 2/5 games are unbeatable due to rake structures.
• Los Angeles is the place to be for anything 10/20 or higher and maybe 5/10
• I am currently rolled to play 1/2 and 1/3 only, but may be able to move up to 2/5 in about a year, and 5/10 likely taking several years.

Given my bankroll and cost of living constraints, LA seems out of the picture. And although I've read the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale low stakes games are incredibly soft, I am concerned about upward mobility there. I think there is only one casino in the area that regularly spreads 5/10, so it is probably filled with regs, making the ceiling in this area likely 2/5. I am guessing 2/5 in SF and Vegas are comparable. Players may tend to be worse in SF, but there are far fewer 2/5 games running. I am still inclined to believe that Las Vegas has the best opportunities for a starting player who wants to move up quickly. It seems likely if I moved to SF I would need to move again to Vegas or LA within a few years, and I hate moving, especially cross-country. The distances of the SF casinos also concerns me. Likely I would end up with easy driving access to 2, maybe 3 casinos.

On the other hand, the impression I get from reading here and elsewhere is that Vegas is going downhill. I was particularly dismayed by the decision to charge parking and MGM deciding again to raise parking even more. I'm unclear as to whether locals have to pay parking, but assuming I do, and I'm playing 40 hours a week, 5 to 6 days a week, we're talking 3k to 5k just for parking, which seems insane.

So what do you guys think about Vegas vs. SF? Have I overlooked LA?

Also, I've been planning on playing cash games but truthfully am probably a better tournament player. My concern here is the variance for tournaments I can afford is probably too high. What level tournament could I afford with my bankroll, and what would be a reasonable expected hourly of such tournaments?

I'd also love to hear opinions about the better neighborhoods in Vegas. I am single with no children, so I don't care about school quality. Minor property crime is not a large concern for me, but I don't want to live anywhere dangerous. Most important to me are the following:

1. Access to the Strip - I'd like to keep within a 30 minute drive.
2. Neighborhood Livability - Affordable but decent housing, access to quality groceries like Whole Foods, etc.
3. Being safe from violent crime
4. Being safe from property crimes

My shortlist for neighborhoods based on previous research is Summerlin, Henderson, Spring Valley, and Green Valley. Green Valley seems ideal based on my criteria but my knowledge of the area is admittedly limited. I am planning a trip to Vegas in a few weeks to gather more information about neighborhoods, apartments and such, unless I decide to fly out to Miami instead.

I know I've brought up a lot of points that have been raised before. For anyone who read this far or intends to respond, I really appreciate it. This is a very important life decision for me and I need to get it right.

Thanks

La is first choice if you can afford it, but between vegas and south florida i'd take florida every time, slightly higher living expenses but much better quality of life imo. I might be biased though bc i honestly don't think i could ever live in vegas.

Worst thing about Vegas is it's packed with selfish douchebags. It shows in the way they drive.

But... no hurricanes.

I would spend a week in each local and see how you like each spot.

Responding to a couple of your bullet pts:

For Mlife and CET properties, you can easily earn free parking with roughly 75 hrs of play at the poker tables.

There are some decent structured x/5 blind NL games in LA.

Two questions.

How much live poker experience do you have? And, where do you live now?

LA is definitely the softest and has good 5/5 games and I've heard the 5/10 game at the Commerce is the nutz. I also don't think your rolled for it.

Vegas vs South Florida? Can you find soft 1/2 games in South Fl 40 hrs a week? Even in Vegas the games aren't always that soft.

If you can swing it I'd try south Florida and Vegas and see which you like better. If you can't this is a great time to start in Vegas and the WSOP is months away.

Oh, and if you haven't been playing live poker much that's another issue.

I think the bigger question is can you play 30-40 hrs of live poker a week and be happy and not degen off when you're being handed $100 bills every day.

I agree with an earlier poster who thought you should go to Vegas during the WSOP, get your feet wet so to speak.

If you go to Vegas during WSOP, I would quickly move up to $2/$5 after a couple of winning $1/$2 sessions.

Your $11K poker roll is plenty for playing $2/$5 here in Vegas.

Heck, we got a local celebrity (the trooper) here in Vegas who plays $2/$5 with a fraction of your poker roll.

As someone who lived in Vegas for several years (2010-2013) and moved to SoFla where I have been living and playing poker for the last 4 years, I think I can answer some of these questions for you. (Or at least give you a competent opinion.) I also still visit Vegas twice a year on average and play 2/5NL, so I can make a current evaluation as well.

But before I give you my opinion of LV vs SoFla, I want to suggest to you that you also post your questions in the South Florida thread in the Regional Communities Sub-Forum as well as here on LVL. That way you'll get the opinions of a few SoFla grinders as well as the people on this forum who are more familiar with the LV poker scene.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/20...-dade-1087699/

Now on to some of your questions: First of all, from a cost-of-living standpoint, Vegas wins hands down, ainec. I don't know where you got the idea that the two are similar, but nothing could be further from the truth. Especially if you want to take in any of the Miami or South Beach scene. In fact, Miami is closer to L.A in cost-of-living, than it is to Vegas.

The rake in SoFla casinos is also more on par with the California "drop", although not quite as extreme as just taking $7 on every flop. All SoFla casinos rake $5 + $2 for the promo fund, most of which goes to high hand promotions, which can be as high as $2000. Here's an example from one casino (Hialeah Park):

http://hialeahparkcasino.com/casino/...ker-promotions

Although all casinos rake the same amount, they don't all do it in the same fashion for every game. For example, at Magic City in Miami, for $1/$2 ($100-$200) and the regular 2/5NL game ($200-$500), they take $3 at $10 even if there is no action. So if you try to steal the blinds and everyone folds, the casino takes $3 and gives you the remaining $4. However, the rake rule for the Deep Stack $2/$5 ($400 - $2,000) is "no flop no drop." So the bottom line is, you can't just make an assumption or a determination of which locale has the better rake structure without delving deeper into how your "home" casino does it. And, of course, picking a home casino will be dependent upon where you choose to live since the casinos are obviously spread out farther than they are in LV.

This post is getting into TL;DR territory, so I'll stop here and answer other questions in a subsequent post.

Vegas also has online poker, so that makes it slightly more worth it.

I'd say you probably shouldn't move anywhere to play poker full time until you are rolled for and consistently beat 2/5.

I'm doing something similar like you OP. I workin Tech as a developer and will be moving to LA with a small roll too. Here's my reason for picking LA.

1. Florida - I didn't want to move to Florida because Floridian seem to be a species all to them selves jus google Florida man and you'll know what I mean. That and giant insect.

2. SF - I didn't pick SF because I'm sure as someone who work in tech you heard story of peoples who make $250k+ a year are living in shipping containers. Rent is just ridiculous in SF right now.

3. Vegas - Rent and cost of living is cheaper. But who would have thought this would be the least likely place for a poker player to try to make a living.

4. LA- game is soft 1/2 - 5/5, yes it cost more to live in LA but there's a lot more to do.

My plan is to go to LA and grind for a month and head to Vegas in the Summer for the series. I'll reevaluate everything after the summer. If worse come to worse I can always go to work for a startup since LA have a healthy Tech eco ssystem now.

Why is the east coast never a consideration? It is the most civilized area of the country and there's tons of poker games.

Marlyand ainec. St. Louis actually underrated market. BTW Vegas is not even close to softest 2/5 and 5/10 games.

Snow man, Snow. That 3 month of the year where the sky turn to ugly gray.

If you hate moving cross country and you are considering the three markets you mentioned and all of your assumptions are true, then go to LV and when you move up to 5/10nl+, move 3.5 hours away to LA. That seems like the MOST logical answer if all the assumptions you made in your original post are true.

If you are looking for game selection and being able to walk between multiple casino options, then Vegas wins hands down. If you need 2-4 casinos within driving range, I'm sure you can find this in Philly/NJ and the Maryland/DC area as well in addition to your three choices mentioned.

I agree with earlier posters who said do a trip to each of the places and see how it feels. You can do a short term rental (2 weeks to a month) at the locations you are considering and take it from there.

For cost of living, Vegas is the cheapest option and I live in Vegas. There is a ton to do here and it's actually a great city to live in. The only negative I would say is the dating scene as it is a pretty transient town and a lot of the smart/good looking women work in the entertainment industry and...well, there are issues with this. There are some good ones but many tend to move away from here after a while in the entertainment business.

LA. It's been said before but Vegas is a very poor city and LA is a very rich city. These LA degenerates have more money than they know what do to with and theres like 15 million of them.

OTOH, a friend of mine put it in perspective pretty well last week. He plays 5/T in Vegas. He says on the whole the games are tougher in Vegas but they get much bigger whales (debatable IMO but not too crazy of a statement.) He said LA COL is 3x Vegas and he doubts his LA hourly is 3x what he makes in LV. Idk. Games in LA have to be more exciting / less backpacks / headphones / poker player starter kits.

Ok dumb question, what exactly is South Florida? Does it mean the same as Southern Nevada?Southern California? or just another name for Miami??

I'm curious as to the following. If you lived in Las Vegas is the flight or drive to LA to much of a hassle to do once or twice a month? (I'm from Vancouver Canada) Could you take advantage of both markets any way? Personally I've heard the East coast doesn't have the whales but lots of fish, could be worth it to rent there for 3-6 months and then goto vegas for the ugly winters on the coast and stay there?

South Florida is usually defined as encompassing Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties, whose major cities are Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, and West Palm Beach. The casinos/poker rooms in these three counties include the following:

Miami-Dade County
Magic City Casino
Hialeah Park
Miccosukee Resort
Casino Jai-Alai (poker room currently closed, but may reopen)
Calder Casino (poker room permanently closed)
Florida City (casino & poker room tentatively scheduled to open this summer)

Broward County
Gulfstream Racetrack
The Casino at Dania Beach
Mardi Gras Casino
Seminole Hard Rock
Seminole Classic (no poker room)
Seminole Coconut Creek
Isle Casino at Pompano Park

Palm Beach County
Palm Beach Kennel Club

Not counting the unopened and unnamed new casino in Florida City, the distance from the southernmost casino and poker room in South Florida (Magic City) to the northernmost in Palm Beach (PBKC) is roughly 70 miles.

I have 6 poker rooms within a 30-minute drive of my condo on Miami Beach, and a total of 9 that are within an hour.

Thank you for your replies so far. Some have already been very helpful. I've tried to address everyone who left more than a one-line response (unless they left it while I was typing this behemoth), and the result is this horrendous block of text, but just Ctrl+F your name if you can't find my response to you. Thanks!

I cannot afford the beatable games in LA like 5/5 as well as the cost of living. My risk of ruin is too high. All the games less than 5/5, I think, that I found on pokeratlas had very bad rake structures.

In what way is the quality of life higher in SF? What is so bad about Las Vegas? I'm in central Texas right now. Pretty much anywhere is a step up.

That is a good idea about spending a week in each locale. However, I had hoped to be moving in to Vegas by June 1 because of WSOP. If I don't choose Vegas I guess it doesn't matter. I need to think about if this is possible in my timeframe or whether I should expand my timeframe.

As far as the parking, assuming I play equally distributed between MGM and Caesar's casinos, I would need a total of 150 hours of play to get free parking? If I play about seven hours a day for six days that means I need to play 25 days to get free parking. Estimated cost of $18 parking makes this total $450. Not great, but about a tenth of my worst case scenario!

My live poker experience is very limited. I have never lived anywhere within driving distance of legal cash games. I have played some small tournaments live where I performed okay, but judged the entry fee too high to justify playing them regularly. I currently live in Waco, Texas. There is no poker anywhere here.

I agree with your second paragraph, regarding LA and the Commerce. I am definitely not rolled to play there. I hope you weren't implying I'm not rolled to play low stakes Vegas games though as I've done the calculations and even with a modest winrate my risk of ruin is very low.

Paragraph 3, whether one can consistently find soft 1/2 games in South Florida is a good question and one I'd hoped answered here. From reading previous threads and researching pokeratlas, I think the answer is "yes", but "no" for 2/5

Good advice on paragraph 4.

I am not remotely degenerate. I don't even watch sports when there's no action going. I studied probability in graduate school and know playing other games besides poker is spewing money.

I believe I can play 30 - 40 hours of poker a week and be content (I don't know about happy). I deal with monotony very well, am introverted, and don't really care about anything right now besides playing poker and building bankroll.

I agree about moving timing. I want to get to Vegas during early WSOP season if that's where I'm headed.

But I'm not so sure about your bankroll assumptions. I'll have 11, maybe 12 set aside for bankroll. Luckily I can build 100% on it for a year, so I may be able to move up to 2/5 quickly if I go on a heater or am not much worse than I thought. Still, the risk of ruin for 12k for a modestly winning player is like 3-5% even at 1/2. At 1/3 I'm assuming it's a bit higher. But for 2/5 that is seriously underbankrolled, is it not? Doesn't that make my risk of ruin like 20ish percent? (I haven't done the math right now, going off memory)

@D2CLV

Thank you for the considered response. It's nice to hear from someone who has lived both areas. I will post a similar thread in Florida section as you have suggested.

I don't remember where I got the impression South Florida might be cheaper. Maybe just because it was in the South? And one of my family members told me cost was about the same, but I shouldn't have believed it without checking.

I'm rather confused about South Florida rake structures. I looked on PokerAtlas at all the card rooms and most had similar structure as Vegas rooms (e.g., 10% capped at $5). And I thought they were all no flop no drop in Florida, at least at the 1/2 $200 buy-in games. I had no idea about the promo funds. I just now looked at Hialeh (sp) cash games and the rake sections just said "10% up to $5". So...is that site useless? Where can I find a compendium of actual rake rates, or do I need to contact casinos individually?

And this probably isn't a fair question, but ignoring climate, schools, social life, and everything else not poker: which have you found more +EV, Vegas or SF (in regards to 1/2 and 2/5 separately if they're different answers). And how much of a difference is it?

I wondered about the online poker and also considered Jersey for that reason, but I'm thinking the player pools must be so tiny there's not much edge to be had. Like how much could one expect to make on Nevada Online compared to right before Black Friday on PokerStars?

And there's a problem with the second question. How long does it take for someone to know he can consistently beat 2/5? Being intimately familiar with variance, I would say two to three years? And what's the bankroll requirement for an acceptable risk of ruin for someone who doesn't even know he can beat 2/5? It's infinite, because any finite bankroll will go broke eventually if the player is not +EV. Unless I am ludicrously wealthy to begin with and already in driving distance of a 2/5 game, this information cannot be discovered.

@EastCoastGrinder

Thank you for all the points you made. You make a compelling case for LA--however, I get the feeling you have a larger starting "life roll" and/or bankroll than I do. I don't think I can afford LA right now. My long term plan is to live in LV or possibly SF, then move to LA when I can afford it. But just guessing here, I figure for 5/5 I need something like 60k bankroll and yearly living expenses of 40-50k? Maybe in a few years, man.

And I hear you about the Floridian species! I've lived in the South most of my life but those Floridians have always been kind of scary. The scary ones are mostly in the panhandle though, lol.

I don't know? Where are the best spots for poker on the East Coast? I was only aware of AC and it lost out pretty quickly by comparison to LV/LA/SF. And I read somewhere Baltimore isn't bad but Baltimore? Most civilized area of the country.

Also, cost of living on the East Coast is quite high. Unless the games are insanely good I can't see why it would be better than sunny, balmy LA, or the much cheaper Vegas.

Where in Maryland? I had heard somewhere Baltimore but I shudder at the idea of living there. Would you mind telling me why it ain't even close or point me in the right direction?

And where are the softest 2/5 and 5/10 games? I'm guessing somewhere in Maryland or St. Louis, but I didn't mean to imply they were globally softest in Vegas. I meant in my comparison of LV/LA/SF, LV is probably softer at the stakes I mentioned. And I'm not trying to be snarky--genuinely interested if there are areas I've overlooked.

Thank you for your considered advice.

1) Your first paragraph is exactly where I was at now in my current plan until I started having doubts about maybe SF being better than Vegas. Awaiting answers/clarifications from others and additional research, it is probably still the best plan.

2) I had not considered Philly/NJ aside from AC, or Maryland/DC at all. I didn't even know there were this many casinos without terrible rake because I thought almost everywhere banned percentage rakes. East Coast is my least favorite part of the country, though. I could get over it for poker's sake, but yuck.

3) This is a good idea but the more places I visit, the later I arrive in Vegas if I decide on Vegas, and I want that WSOP bustout money.

LA is also a very expensive city. And plenty of LA degenerates head down to Vegas as it's a 1 hour flight and 4 hour drive, right? From my research I'm guessing 5/10 in LV and LA are close, probably a little better in LV due to cost of living but livable in both, and then anything higher than that (10/20, 20/40) is LA all the way.

South Florida for poker purposes refers to "Miami & Ft. Laud area, including Ft. Lauderdale & Pompano Beach, Hollywood, Miami, and West Palm Beach." That's where most of the casinos are.

Good job replying to everyone. I really hope whatever you pick ends up working out for you. Good luck. Maybe blog or vlog about it and see if that might provide a 2nd source of income.

If parking in Las Vegas is a concern for you, you can open credit cards with either or both MGM and Caesars and get free parking automatically. The cards have no fees and you don't even have to use them. You will get free parking. Open say the Caesars card and play 75 or 80 hours at an MGM poker room and get their free parking and now you can park at both no problem.

Also you can currently park for free at Caesars properties by swiping a Nevada ID which you should be able to get fairly soon after moving here.

You said you prefer tournaments to cash. You should know that Card Player did an analysis of big name pros and found that very, very few players make a living at tournaments. If you're planning on just playing the crappy daily Vegas tournaments, you'll be disappointed.

Ever play 40 hours in a week? Maybe you can't handle it week after week, year after year.

I think Vegas has the toughest 2/5 of those although rake and comps are better plus lower cost of living. Games are tighter which is bad for winrate but at least it makes the variance less. It just seems almost anywhere I have played St. Louis, Iowa, Maryland, have better 2/5 games only possible exception is New Jersey.

The best place to play in Maryland is MGM National Harbor which is along the Virginia border nowhere near Baltimore. There are two other casinos in the Baltimore area though. There is a lot of money and not much poker experience since the casino just opened 4 months ago. Is a big room with like 38 tables though you may get tired of playing in one room all the time but it is really good. I am most likely moving there after the WSOP or possibly Iowa but that would be more for family reasons than poker.

I thought so. Is this true even at the high buy in daily tourneys? I see $600 and higher buy-in tourneys pretty much every day. I'm obviously not rolled for them, but if I were, should those still be avoided?

My plan is to play 1/2 and 1/3 cash games, transition to 2/5 when I can, etc. Maybe become a tournament player one day if I'm successful enough and determine it's decidedly +EV over the cash games.

Not live. I did occasionally play this much or more online, but most of the time couldn't play this much due to obligations I had then that I no longer have. Now my time is basically unlimited.

I am pretty sure I can handle it psychologically. Poker is easy work compared to some things I was doing before. PhD level mathematics is hell. That started with about 60 hours a week, which I could handle. The next semester started closer to 80, and by the end was over 100. That I couldn't deal with it. Or didn't want to. Take your pick. Once you factor in the numerous 20-hour problem sets (no exaggeration), the weekly 30 to 40 hours of grading, plus teaching preparations and actually going to class, I figure graduate students make like $4 an hour. And that doesn't help psychologically.

I think I can deal with six to seven hours of poker six days a week. Only way I'll know for certain is to do it. But as I've mentioned, I do have contingencies if I can't make it as a poker player.

Thanks for the examples. I think we should indeed factor in cost of living as life rake when determining which games are softer than others.

Example 1: I'm playing 1/2 in LV, making $16/hour 40 hours a week over 4 weeks. My monthly expenses are 2000. I make 2560, leaving 560 a month in profits.

Example 2: I'm playing 1/2 at a game in Maryland, making $20/hour 40 hours a week over 4 weeks. My monthly expenses are 3000. I make 3200 a month, leaving 200 a month in profits.

I think most people would say the Example 2 game is softer, but personally I think it's misleading. We need to factor in cost of living. The games that give highest +$EV over life are softer.

Given this kind of definition, do you still feel the 2/5 games are softer in the locales mentioned above?

I will look into these places, especially MGM National Harbor. I imagine cost of living is quite high over there, isn't it? Guess I'll check that out too. As for playing on one big room, that wouldn't bother me. What does bother me about some of these newer casinos or jurisdictions where poker is legally gray is that I might move there to play and have police raid the card rooms or feel the political winds shifting. One more personal negative about Virginia or Maryland or many East Coast states is 2nd amendment issues. I'd have to give up some rights and property I'd rather keep. I'd be willing to do it if the advantage to the locale is high enough but I'd rather not.