Well, we want the players who are gambling, but don't think they are. For sure some players are not going to want to play 1/3, but would play 1/2. Especially if you raise the max to $500. Losing $500 compared to $200 is going to be huge in their mind (and should be, considering the players that we want sitting at the games.)

They made a little plaque.

It's only $1 an orbit for players that fold every other position's hand and fold to any other bet in their big blind. Beyond the obvious that any limp is $1 more, raises are more because they are typically based on pot size, not to mention the larger stacks. It's almost an entirely different limit in itself.

I've found that opening raises aren't really any bigger in 1/2 compared to 1/3. They tend to average around $10-15 in both games. And I've never found the stacks to be much different either, except that I do tend to see fewer extreme short stackers at 1/2. But even if you make the buy-on greater than $300, not many people buy in for more than $300 at either game.

The biggest difference is that the pot is indeed 50% bigger in multiway limped pots, and in some ways this actually makes 1/3 seem like a shallower game.

Why should they be bigger in 1/2 than in 1/3?

Yeah, my mistake; I meant to opposite. But regardless, I think opening raises are very similar (in absolute terms) in both games. Relative to the BB, raises in 1/2 ARE bigger.

If a player is making $15/hour playing 1/2NL, how much will his win rate drop due to this rake increase?

bad at math?

False advertising. What about time rake? :O

Bellagio does not use the term "rake" for time games. It is called time charge.

Rake did not go up 20%. The maximum rake went up 20%. rake is unchanged for all the hands that don't reach the maximum.

the max rake went up 25%, not 20.

Yes, that's how I came up with 20%. I extrapolated the average pot against 25% and settled on 20%.

Here are some old threads from the archives. They discuss the Bellagio and Mirage raising their rake from $3 max to $4 max in September of 2002 and a mini-rebellion from some Mirage regulars.



Rake increases at Mirage and Bellagio

The Mandalay Bay 10-20 game

Mandalay Bay 10-20 game dies

Inflation: up
Parking: up
resort fees: up
rake: up
gas: up
flights: up

Wages: stagnant or falling behind inflation

Tell me more about how people "want" to gamble for less and less money again.

Can anyone remind me of the logic behind a lower rake drawing more grinders? I've heard it before but I forget.

Great read on how people where outraged on the $3 to $4 hike back over 15 years ago!

There were several posts along this line but I quoted this because it was the most direct.

Of course, if you were to take someone in isolation, the answer to the question is no. That is, if you were to pick someone out of the 2003 1/2 NL player pool and fast forward them 14 years to plunk them into a 1/3, they'd object.

But if you were to take a random tourist in 2003, and say, you can either take the money you have now and play 1/2 or we can fast forward you 14 years and give you a bonus 20-30% on your buyin (and raise the rake by 25%), you'd find people a lot more willing.

The vast majority of people will see their salaries go up every year, and the amount they're willing to blow on gambling go up every year. In 15 years, 1/2 will feel ridiculously small, like the way 50c/1 NL or $3 blackjack feels today.

Cropped out Sheldon under the desk? Should have left that in.

Maybe it actually is their fault. They don't have to offer the tiniest games anyone will play. They also could offer a time charge in all the games, instead of only in the biggest ones.

In the Seattle area I think everywhere is $3 max rake, although they mostly have an additional $3 promo drop.

Is it still $4 max in Atlantic City and Philadelphia?

The Orleans is $3 max + $2. Their jackpot money gets redistributed quickly too.

I wish they would make 2-5 the lowest limit like Bellagio used to do. But unfortunately 1-2 and 1-3 NL are the games of choice for most tourists in Vegas.

Unfortunately, $1 of it goes to promotions that you can only get any back if you are a regular who puts in a ton of hours.

It's hard to quantify but I'd wager it's more than most people realize.