It's too fatalistic to say the Venetian is a predictable result of circumstances.

What is predictable is that SOME rooms will close. What is not predictable is which rooms those will be.

Venetian was only behind Bellagio a few years ago. What changed? Well, poker is down, sure. But management also actively downsized the room, and that's out of control of the players.

What is not out of players' control is the locust swarming. Every time one room does something minor - raise rake, reduce comps - a lot of people whine and bitch and declare that room to be the worst room and move elsewhere. Of course, when their next destination makes the same moves, that becomes the new Worst Room Ever and the swarm moves on. In its wake, there's a trail of destruction as each room builds up infrastructure to accomodate the swarm. Everyone wants 50 rooms each with the softest 1/2 NL game known to mankind - this loses critical mass for the larger games and turns the LV poker scene into a substinence farming operation.

It would be nice if there were just abother poker boom. But more reasonable is for people to make sure the 1-2 best rooms (however you define that) are fully supported so they can weather the storm.

That's like PHo. When they started moving the room around they finally found a spot near the front door that got the place hopping. The daily tournaments had 80+ entries. 2/5 ran somewhat often. 4/8 limit ran just about always. So obviously they had to move it out of there. That space is now occupied by a nondescript bar that's often empty. Why would a casino put a bar front and center? If someone wants booze, they will find it. Plus, there are several bars in every casino. Poker is often an impulse "buy". That's the kind of thing you want out front.

in all my years of playing poker on the strip, i have yet to see a room increase
business long term by adding "promotions" such as freerolls, high hands or
jackpots.

mgm is clearly an example. their business hasn't returned to the levels is was
when they just played the game straight up with no gimmicks or lottery type
shenanigans.

look what happened to caesars room, the room was almost dead when they
had $5+$1 rake, now it is CET's busiest room since they dropped the rake to $4 and eliminated the promos.

so where does venetian think it is going to gain customers from by starting
jackpots? the busiest rooms on the strip are the ones who don't offer these
silly gimmicks.

the biggest winners from a venetian jackpot will likely be wynn and caesars.

and why do we call these "promotions" when it is the players who are funding?

If MGM regulary had 20+ tables going on some nights, it definitely wasn't in the year before they started taking $2 for the drop. Moving the location had a bigger impact IMO.

There wasn't really anything special about the room. They didn't offer as many comps as other rooms were offering. And it wasn't the same experience as playing at places like Aria or Venetian (before the room fell apart).

They didn't know how to run the room back when. The floor made bad decisions often. They showed up often in the live forum, which is basically a rules and rulings forum. They would do crazy crap like open a 5/5 table with 3 on the list when there were 12 on the 5/T list. Why they would even have both lists is pretty stupid.

It was Riviera that did a $2 drop to create freerolls. That killed off an already struggling room. The room closed without any discussion of what happened to all of that promo drop. The room would be dead now anyway since that property is sitting in a landfill and recycling operation now.

The Palms was a special kind of disaster. They tried a desperate $1+$4 or something like that and spewed through the promo pool faster than it came in.

The Palms might be the biggest disappointment in terms of poker failure. That was a really nice room surrounded by the sportsbook. Palms and poker were declining and Cantor had never run a poker room before. It was a bad combination.

Status of Las Vegas Poker, Autumn, 2016


This is an except from my Spring, 2016 article.

That reminds me. The Palms aggressively ran a bunch of promotions in the hopes that they would increase business in the room by a huge amount. It was shocking to see how many promotions they were running and some people thought business would increase a lot. Instead, the room still struggled. So what makes the folks at Venetian think any promotions they run will still be so special? They will not give away anywhere near the amount of prizes that the Palms was giving away.

I don't think business has really dropped at MGM with the $2 drop, but I should also add that I don't think business has increased either. I'll even admit that it's possible that business dropped a little. If it has I haven't noticed.

I suspect that many people are suckers for bbj type promotions when the prize money get large. People really love lotteries and are attracted to huge prize money no matter how ridiculous the odds are. Look at all the people that get excited about winning the mega millions despite the ridiculous odds.

MAYBE high hand promotions might attract business too if a room gives away a lot of money. Mandalay Bay stopped doing the high hand promotions they used to do 3 times a week and business seems to be down in that room. But I'm really skeptical about other promotions. In almost any other case though I think high hand promotions will not increase business in a room.

It's a great discussion.
In no way did I intend to push one single factor in a rooms downfall. It's almost always a fatal alignment of the stars that pushes business from one area to another. My career spanned three different customer service industries; vastly differing from adult gaming, but basic business tenets still apply. And yes, the customer reaction is the Importent one, not the business move. Hence, the locust swarming is something you want to cultivate, just in your direction.
One of the big issues with the MGM falloff is the Aria opening. Take 100 poker players who feel like they are being jerked around, and open a beautiful new room down the street, voila. Maybe it was actually a bit by design, Bobby B? Same company, different division.
A look at the Venetian website, now, reveals a company that seems to be downplaying ALL aspects of gaming, not just poker. Look at how many drop downs one needs to click on in order to find the poker room page. Casino gaming doesn't even have its own tab anymore.
Which begs the question: if a corporation goes from a full bore provider to one that is less than....it's obviously by design. What's the next step?

Being down just a little means you have trended with the market, hard to blame comps either way

I agree with the people earlier who said moving the room around 800 times was what killed MGM, although I personally hated that room and wasn't sad to see it decline.

I think MGM moving the room was all about the club being more profitable than poker. I think P Ho benefitted from MGM's decline just as much as Aria did.

I think the Aria room reflects a couple of other things. First, City Center/Aria were designed to be more inclusive to where you didn't have to leave. They wanted to funnel people from those hotels into that room. Second, the Bellagio poker room was insanely packed in the days when Aria opened. They wanted to capture people who were on 40 person wait lists for LLSNL instead of seeing it go to Caesars or somewhere else. Remember, this room was so busy it didn't even have to offer anything below 2/5 NL for a long time. And they wanted to give the high end players a new room in the back to move some of that from the B to open up space for more games there.

Your review of the V website is accurate - why do you think that is? The answer is consistent with their having the weakest slot club on the Strip. They are churning conventions through there at a much higher rate than most other Strip resorts, and they take care of their high end players that they want beyond that.

Saw this on Bravo.

Funny how they say they are "giving away" money. Maybe Adelson really does love poker players after all.

Ok, so ... i have met John Papas before. As a matter of fact he was in my fraternity in college.

All I can tell you is he is one of the most stand up guys I have ever met, and I believe in the PPA, and stand behind it 100% even though I have always prefered live.

I really want an Aria chip for my collection, but I want to be 100% sure Adelson doesn't profit. Buying one on eBay doesn't count.

About time a room paid for its arrogance. Aria is next. Shift managers think they are wardens. Dealt with obnoxious shift manager will never play at Aria again.
Sat next to a Dutchman from Amsterdam staying at Wynn. He was @ Bellagio and said WYNN was uncomfortable because of seemingly "privileged" players who seemed to be looking for a donkey. They work in pairs he said. I had the same feeling and experience a few years back. Have not been to WYNN since. Bellagio is far from perfect but I am most comfortable there. Afraid none of us will live long enough for poker management to give us the respect we deserve.

Man Steve that is highway robbery from tourists to weekday nit regs

"Your review of the V website is accurate - why do you think that is? The answer is consistent with their having the weakest slot club on the Strip. ".................i have no idea, but I'm beginning to think its really by design. My wife echos the sentiment, and shes a penny slot player. For the last few years its been " F that place...you go play cards, I'll meet you later at Bouchon or Grand Lux" , while she would stay on the machines at Mirage or Caesars. Because she feels, she does not win on their slot machines. Penny slots, OK, but her daily churn is probably 7-10K daily. And the V is one of the only places she has not, ever, gotten a hand pay. In over 15 years, 6X a year and more visiting.

"Funny how they say they are "giving away" money."......agree, Steve. To me, this is as bad as hourly rakeback- it won't last, the room will be nit-infested, and the room will be empty when the promo stops. It works in Florida rooms because- Everybody does it, and they have a $2.00 p/h promo drop.
I played at Foxwoods last year on a day that hand $500 HH every 30m.....at the 1/3 and then even a 2/5 game I was in, the locals got PISSED at most preflop raises, thinking you were pricing them out of a potential $500 bonanza. My gawd. If I passed out some yarn and needles, I could nave had a whoel drawful of socks knitted for me by the end of the session. Awful. So, there my .02 about High Hand Promos in a market that doesn't need them, overall.

Personally, I'm glad to see the Venetian not doing well. I haven't played there in about 6 years after they screwed me out of my poker room rate and got charged full price for a week long stay. Plus, who gives a eff about Sheldon? I hope they shut down completely and another room steps up to take their place.

I actually have played a little at Venetian recently and tourists seem confused and are asking over and over again why the room isn't getting the business it used to get.

The people working at Aria always seem nice to me. Bellagio is clearly worse when it comes to that IMO.

If you haven't been to LV in 3 years, your view of the world is what it was the last time you saw it.

When I go to Vegas I usually stay at the Venetian. Am very surprised the room has gone downhill, but with the moves they made, it was only a matter of time. I'll be in Vegas during Super Bowl weekend, pretty sure the room will be jammed.