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Old 09-09-2012, 07:12 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by tmckendry View Post
An average $2/5 NLH game is far more profitable than your average $1/3PLO game. If marginall enjoyment > profit, stick to PLO.
I disagree. I've played both a decent amount at V and aria and find the PLO games to be better more often.
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:45 PM   #177
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I disagree. I've played both a decent amount at V and aria and find the PLO games to be better more often.
I agree with this as well. I've played both of theses games regularly and 1/3 PLO is more profitable than most 2/5 nl games. That said play what games make you the most instead of what others say. Like you said PLO might be profitable one day and than another the nl game might be better.
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Old 09-10-2012, 07:40 PM   #178
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

Not too much to update since my last one. I've just been playing 2/5nl at the Venetian the last couple days. I feel like I'm playing pretty well but also am running really hot, having won every day since going back to holdem.

I'm having fun sort of figuring out the players again, since how people play certain hands in holdem is much different than PLO. I'm pretty happy with my progress so far and I already feel more confident in spots that a few days ago I wasn't sure about. I still have plenty of room to improve but at least I feel like I'm moving in the right direction.
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Old 09-10-2012, 07:52 PM   #179
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

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Originally Posted by mixgameADDict View Post
I disagree. I've played both a decent amount at V and aria and find the PLO games to be better more often.
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Originally Posted by McStraddle View Post
I agree with this as well. I've played both of theses games regularly and 1/3 PLO is more profitable than most 2/5 nl games. That said play what games make you the most instead of what others say. Like you said PLO might be profitable one day and than another the nl game might be better.
I think this was the case during the WSOP, but since the series has been over I've played about an equal amount of 2/5 nl and 1/3 PLO and this has not been my experience. Sample size is obv not enough to make any conclusions but just saying what I have noticed. That said, if the PLO games were as good as they were during the WSOP I don't think this would even be close.
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:55 AM   #180
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

Hey guys, just been grinding the 2/5 nlh at the V the last couple days. I've definitely cooled off the last few days, booking two losing sessions in a row and not making many hands.

Yesterday I got stuck early trying to double barrel (meaning betting the flop and turn as a bluff) this Asian lady in a spot where she is basically never folding the turn. This is definitely one of my leaks. I end up continuing on stupid bluffs because I have no hand and its the only way I can win, but in reality I need to just give up because my opponent is never going to fold given the situation.

Today was a very bad session and I literally can't remember even making a pair post-flop. My table had a few good young players but there were a couple spots and I had position on the young guys so I didn't mind it. The only big pot I got in was I shoved AK on the flop after 4-betting preflop and ran into KK. I'm not sure if this was a mistake or not. There were about 4 good aggressive players at the table and there had been quite a bit of 3-betting, and in situations like that AK is an auto 4-bet. However, the player that 3-bet me was not the type to be 3-betting light very often, and on top of that I raised from early position so I maybe should have just folded to the 3-bet.

Ended the session down a buy-in and not really satisfied with my play. Not only did I possibly mess up the above hand, I wasn't paying very close attention or getting reads. Its probably a good thing I was card dead most of the session because had I got into any sticky spots I may have made some mistakes as a result of not really paying attention. I think I've played too many days in a row, since with my brother coming into town I didn't take a day off because he wanted to play and I'm not gonna go to the casino and not play so I've played I think 10 days straight now.

Tomorrow is the last day of his visit so I'll probably end up playing for a bit, but I might make it a short session, especially if I find myself not focused. Although I wasn't thrilled with the last couple days, I still feel like I am making progress at 2/5 and when I have been focused I have played really well and learned a lot. Now what I need to work on staying focused as close to 100% of the time as I can.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:44 AM   #181
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

the AK hand is most likely a mistake although if it was v a young guy thats aggro i can see making the play. That being said when your 4 bet get flatted live its generally by AA/KK v most live players. I have had players (weak regs) do this: limp, limp villain isos pretty big from co/button Im in the blind and cold 3 bet with AK - villain open mucks QQ.

I am taking today off but will be gamboolin tomorrow if you want to discuss the table dynamic/hand irl


in terms of the asian lady 2 barrel. When firing the 2nd prior to doing so u need to ask yourself is this a good card for me to bet...b/c it sounds like it was not. Aggression is key, however it needs to be properly timed otherwise its just spew
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:40 PM   #182
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

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I am taking today off but will be gamboolin tomorrow if you want to discuss the table dynamic/hand irl
Ok sounds good I'll hit you up tomorrow.

With the double barrel hand it was a 443 flop and the turn was another 4, definitely a bad card for me because any pair she called the flop with is gonna call again. I had 56cc and there were two clubs on the board so I had oe+fd, but thats basically worthless against anything that calls the turn.
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:46 PM   #183
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

Those are some really good posts. Thank you for keeping them up.
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Old 09-13-2012, 12:24 AM   #184
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I think this was the case during the WSOP, but since the series has been over I've played about an equal amount of 2/5 nl and 1/3 PLO and this has not been my experience. Sample size is obv not enough to make any conclusions but just saying what I have noticed. That said, if the PLO games were as good as they were during the WSOP I don't think this would even be close.
My statement was based on 300 or so hours of play over the past year none of it during the series (when I was playing tournies or cash games at the rio). It's a rare day that the PLO game aren't good. But of course what I consider a good game may not be the same as others.
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:38 PM   #185
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

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I am taking today off but will be gamboolin tomorrow if you want to discuss the table dynamic/hand irl
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Ok sounds good I'll hit you up tomorrow.
Pretty beat from playing 11 days straight so I'm takin today off. I'll find you tomorrow. Got some other hands too if you're interested in discussing them.
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Old 09-13-2012, 09:20 PM   #186
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

As noted in the above post I'm taking today off. I was going to play today but while talking to my dad on the phone I realized it was Thursday and I was planning the next few days in my head as if it was Friday, so that combined with having played 11 days in a row made me think it was time for a day off.

I ended up playing a full session yesterday even though I thought I might cut it short. As it happened, I was feeling and playing well and the game had a couple deep spots in it as well. I ended up winning a pot in the must move game against my brother, which was really the only significant pot we have played against each other his whole trip. I 3-bet his late open from the blinds with AK and bet an Axx flop. He called and the turn was a 3. With about a 2/3 pot sized bet left I elected to shove and he folded what he would later say was AT. Didn't stack him, but got about a weeks worth of pro-rated rent, so we'll just call that his lodging expense.

After getting moved to the main game I won a nice pot with JJ after getting raised on a 642 flop. My opponent only min raised, which suggested a small overpair or something like A6. I knew I would get a better idea of his hand on the turn. I check called a 40% pot sized bet on a 9 turn. The river came an 8 and after I checked he instantly bet like 1/6 the pot, which was an amount slightly smaller than his turn bet. This only left him with basically a min raise left which was very suspicious. To me it seemed like he was going to bet this amount no matter what came and usually when people are planning to bet no matter what, they are either bluffing or have the nuts. Problem is its hard for the 8 not so scare him no matter what he has, so I made the call and was good.

I would win some other smallish pots from there and didn't get into any interesting spots until the end. I got into a crazy spot with a good aggressive player from the east coast that was visiting for a couple weeks. I had raised AK from early position and he was the only caller on the button. The flop came Axx (I think it was A68 but not 100% sure). I bet about 75% pot and he called. The turn was the J and I bet about 60% pot and he thought for a minute and called again. The river was the Q, not really the best card for me. Not only do I lose to a flush, I also lose to AQ with the Q now. I debated whether to bet, and if so how much. I ended up making a 1/2 pot bet to induce a call from Ax combos, though this might be a c/call or c/fold in hindsight. He ended up raising it up to about 3.75 times my bet.

The reasons why this is such a crazy spot is because we are really deep, having both started the hand with >300 big blinds, and I have the K, so I know he can't have the nut flush. At this point if I shove it would be about 200 big blinds for him to call. To put this bet into perspective, I usually buy in for ~100 bbs, so to raise 200 more on the river is huge. This play crossed my mind, and if anyone is ever capable of folding a flush in a live game, this player in this situation would be it. The problem is, having raised in early position and having the Jh on the board, the only hearts in my range are KQ, and if he has the Q as one of his flush cards, he won't fold, reasoning that I can't have a flush that doesn't include that card. I normally wouldn't give a live player credit for thinking this much but having played a few sessions with him and talking to him for a bit, I know he does. I ended up folding and later he would tell me that he had T9 for the 3rd nut flush.

I asked if he would ever fold to a shove on the river and he said given my stack size it would have been sick. At first he said he would fold but then said he would probably call, and then said because he was leaving tomorrow he might have folded to keep from losing a big pot on the last day. I'm not sure I really believe that logic since he seemed like a good enough player to not let stuff like that seep in, so I guess the only way to know is if I had done it. The J on board taking a way a lot of the medium flushes (9J, TJ, QJ), and therefore making his range weighted more towards small flushes is an argument for going for it but I just couldn't give even this guy credit for being able to fold a flush on a non-paired board. I still don't know but a crazy spot nonetheless. Well this got way too long but it was such a crazy spot and I had more to say about it than I thought.

Shortly after that I hit a wall for some reason and was really tired so I racked up still with a decent profit and having played well overall by my estimation, which was a nice confidence boost after two mediocre sessions.

Anyway as I said taking today off and gonna catch the rest of the Bears/Packers game now.

Last edited by cushlash; 09-13-2012 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:19 AM   #187
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

good bet/fold. all you really have is a bluffcatcher at this point. you lose to two pair, sets, flushes, straights.

well played.
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:42 AM   #188
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

Very sick spot against Robfarha

I was pretty honest with what I told you after the hand because I left yesterday so there was no angling or anything on my part. Even on the computer I'll still tell you I had 109, I did.

I'm really torn on what I would of done on the river also for basically the same reason you said you didn't shove.

It's so rare to see a hand played out where your turning TPTK with the nut flush blocker into a huge river bluff. It would of been incredibly sick no matter what I did.

To be honest I would of probably given you credit for KQhh exactly and folded because how often is someone shipping 1k on a b/3b river bluff?

As far as me saying because I was leaving tommorow. Yeah, I was being facetious lol

River is an easy bet/fold. B/F is like the bread and butter of LLSNL because even against good opponents, how often am I really raising that river as a bluff? Not too often to be honest, because you have two pairs and some sets in your range. Even against good players, I'm not trying to get people to fold two pair, it's just not how money is made. Very nice hand.

I think your a very good, level headed player and wish you the best of luck with what your doing. We will bump into each other again, I'm sure.

By the way all you Venetian regs should send me royalties for making that arabic fishy guy love poker so much. That dude is the best lol

Also - gg packers
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:45 PM   #189
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

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Very sick spot against Robfarha

I was pretty honest with what I told you after the hand because I left yesterday so there was no angling or anything on my part. Even on the computer I'll still tell you I had 109, I did.

I'm really torn on what I would of done on the river also for basically the same reason you said you didn't shove.

It's so rare to see a hand played out where your turning TPTK with the nut flush blocker into a huge river bluff. It would of been incredibly sick no matter what I did.

To be honest I would of probably given you credit for KQhh exactly and folded because how often is someone shipping 1k on a b/3b river bluff?

As far as me saying because I was leaving tommorow. Yeah, I was being facetious lol

River is an easy bet/fold. B/F is like the bread and butter of LLSNL because even against good opponents, how often am I really raising that river as a bluff? Not too often to be honest, because you have two pairs and some sets in your range. Even against good players, I'm not trying to get people to fold two pair, it's just not how money is made. Very nice hand.
Yea I believed you when you said you had T9. I just don't know what I would have done had I been in your spot and was facing a shove on the river so I can't be sure if actually put in that situation you would have done what you said you would have done. Hopefully that makes sense, not a dig on you at all. Very nice hand indeed.

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I think your a very good, level headed player and wish you the best of luck with what your doing. We will bump into each other again, I'm sure.
Thanks man, gl to you too. If you're in Vegas again hit me up. Although I don't think I can take any more sessions with you and "A6o kid" at my table at the same time. haha

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By the way all you Venetian regs should send me royalties for making that arabic fishy guy love poker so much. That dude is the best lol
haha yea he's great. Just cold calling 3bets with K7 and Q9 from the blinds and hitting like a boss. Must be an old school thing.

Last edited by cushlash; 09-14-2012 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:53 PM   #190
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

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good bet/fold. all you really have is a bluffcatcher at this point. you lose to two pair, sets, flushes, straights.

well played.
Thanks. I was pretty confident that the river was either a fold or ship and rep the nuts, but part of me was thinking I shouldn't bet. Sometimes I end up value-owning myself a few times and question the b/f in certain spots, but as RobFarha said above, b/f is pretty much the nuts in LLSNL.
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Old 09-16-2012, 05:32 AM   #191
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

Been continuing playing Venetian 2/5 the last couple days. Yesterday's session went pretty well. I was up a decent amount early and got a table change due to a known bad player being at another table that had a seat just open up. I made a small amount at that table until I lost a sizeable pot value-owning myself with KK. Value-owning is a term used to describe a situation in which you are betting for value but then the other player calls down with a slightly better hand, and really you just ended up value betting their hand for them. It happens now and then because in low stakes NLHE, value is the #1 priority, so sometimes you will end up in this situation. My river bet may have been too thin and I probably could have just checked but I usually err on the side of too thin rather than missing value. He ended up having been slow-playing the 2nd nuts and for some reason just called on the river. Oh well.

That pot put me under for the day and so I thought it a good time to take a break. After coming back from dinner and topping my stack off, I won a couple small pots, putting me back to about even. About an hour later I picked up AA on the button and 3-bet an early position opener. He was a tight player and I expected him to have a strong hand he wasn't going to fold and was looking to get it in right there. He just called and we saw a T73 flop. He checked, I bet and he shoved all in. I called and he ended up having QQ and my AA held up. After that I didn't get into many other big hands, chipping up with some small pots, and ending with a good win.

Today had some good and some bad. First off, my Badgers pulled off a win. Even though it wasn't pretty, in football, unlike in poker, a win is a win.

Poker-wise, I think I played good, and had some bad results. Because the Wisconsin game was a 5pm start, I didn't start playing until about 10pm and was planning on making it a shorter session than usual. I was up early after busting a somewhat short stack with JJ on a T96 board. He ended up having KT and my JJ held up. That and another medium pot from before had me sitting on double my initial buy-in. Unfortunately it was pretty downhill from there, highlighted by two pre-flop all-ins with AK.

The first was against a short stack. He raised from the button, I 3-bet from the small blind with AKo, he went all in, and I called. He had QQ and I failed to improve. I would lose a bit more between this hand and the next, mostly due to one hand in which I bet/folded the turn with TPGK (top pair good kicker).

The second was much more interesting. I raised AK to 20 from early position and got 2 callers. The big blind suddenly makes it 200. I started the hand with about 600. The big blind had just moved to our table and was drinking and talking a lot. I was informed by another regular that he is good action and a bad player. However, in the first orbit he was there I didn't see much from him and he seemed to be playing loose but passive. He had only been at the table maybe 7 or 8 hands, so it could have been that he just hadn't got much yet. To me this raise usually means something like 99-QQ, AK, or AQ. He didn't strike me as one of the old lady types that makes it 75 preflop with AA and KK because they are scared to lose a big pot and are happy to pick up the blinds. It seemed like a medium pair that didn't want to play post-flop when an overcard is likely to hit. I thought he was going to fold a lot to a shove and if he calls I'm fairly likely to be flipping. So I shoved. He called. He had AA. Flop came QT6, giving me some life with my gutshot. The turn was the 2, giving me more life with a flush draw. The river was the 7, shipping the pot to my opponent.

I was only planning on staying about another hour when this hand went down so I decided just to pack it up. I'm satisfied with my play the last couple days, but still definitely have some things to work on.
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Old 09-16-2012, 06:01 AM   #192
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

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in football, unlike in poker, a win is a win.
I wanted to say more about this, but it didn't really fit with the last post so I'll say it here.

For some reason the human mind likes to simplify things as either a win or a loss. Some really sophisticated situations might even allow people to include the possibility of a tie. This seems to be the prevailing logic in most sports and other competitive events. Whether team A beats team B by 1 point or 100, team A is deemed better than team B by roughly the same amount. Sure if its close the loser might go down a bit less in whatever standings/rankings are put out, but it is far from proportionate to the loss.

I see this logic from bad players all the time in poker. A good aggressive player is up a lot and has a huge stack. A bad player limps in and the good aggressive player raises. Often the bad player will complain, saying things like "you're already up so much, why are you trying to take more of my money" or "haven't you won enough?".

If someone asked this to me and I was forced to answer honestly, my response would be frankly, NO. It doesn't matter how much I'm up today, I am here to make the most money possible. So if I have a profitable situation, I am going to do my best to maximize it. In poker, a win is not a win. A $200 win is exactly twice as good as a $100 win. And someone with 10 wins of $100, while undefeated, is still worse off than another player with 6 $300 wins and 4 $100 losses. Its not my goal to just win for the session, I want to maximize those winnings. If football coaches got an extra $1000 for every point they won by, you can bet that there would be a lot more running up the score in blowout games. But in poker, bad players, and even some decent players make bad plays while winning despite this truth. They pass up profitable situations because they don't want to have an unlucky hand ruin their "win". They make bad calls because "its ok, I can afford it, I'm up tonight".

So I guess the whole point of this rant is that, when you play poker, play to win the most money, which may not necessarily correlate to winning the most frequently. I know this is way different than most of my posts and is sorta off topic but I was thinking about this disconnect between how the human mind usually thinks and how it should think in poker and wanted to share it. This is just one example of how sometimes the best play in poker does not follow what most people would logically deduce at first glance.
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:14 AM   #193
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

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TPGK (top pair good kicker).
Using an acronym and then writing it all out anyway, that's pretty funny.

Good luck, seems like you're doing ok.
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:21 AM   #194
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

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The second was much more interesting. I raised AK to 20 from early position and got 2 callers. The big blind suddenly makes it 200. I started the hand with about 600. The big blind had just moved to our table and was drinking and talking a lot. I was informed by another regular that he is good action and a bad player.


Was this the maniac that wore his glasses on the tip of his nose. If so you simply got horribly unlucky. Vs him I snap ship fistpump high five every one here all day long.
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Old 09-16-2012, 03:37 PM   #195
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

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Using an acronym and then writing it all out anyway, that's pretty funny.

Good luck, seems like you're doing ok.
not realizing that he explained earlier why he was doing this is also funny.

good luck Cushlash
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Old 09-16-2012, 06:00 PM   #196
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

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Was this the maniac that wore his glasses on the tip of his nose. If so you simply got horribly unlucky. Vs him I snap ship fistpump high five every one here all day long.
No it was a somewhat drunk mid 30's dude in a suit jacket.
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Old 09-16-2012, 08:00 PM   #197
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

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So I guess the whole point of this rant is that, when you play poker, play to win the most money, which may not necessarily correlate to winning the most frequently.
+1,000,000.000.87

Cannot agree more!

Optimize to win the most money, not the most hands!

People make this exact same mistake in finance ALL THE TIME. They close out winning trades to "preserve" the win, but lose out on huge opportunities if the trade continues to run.

GL at the tables,

S
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:13 PM   #198
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

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I wanted to say more about this, but it didn't really fit with the last post so I'll say it here.

For some reason the human mind likes to simplify things as either a win or a loss. Some really sophisticated situations might even allow people to include the possibility of a tie. This seems to be the prevailing logic in most sports and other competitive events. Whether team A beats team B by 1 point or 100, team A is deemed better than team B by roughly the same amount. Sure if its close the loser might go down a bit less in whatever standings/rankings are put out, but it is far from proportionate to the loss.

I see this logic from bad players all the time in poker. A good aggressive player is up a lot and has a huge stack. A bad player limps in and the good aggressive player raises. Often the bad player will complain, saying things like "you're already up so much, why are you trying to take more of my money" or "haven't you won enough?".

If someone asked this to me and I was forced to answer honestly, my response would be frankly, NO. It doesn't matter how much I'm up today, I am here to make the most money possible. So if I have a profitable situation, I am going to do my best to maximize it. In poker, a win is not a win. A $200 win is exactly twice as good as a $100 win. And someone with 10 wins of $100, while undefeated, is still worse off than another player with 6 $300 wins and 4 $100 losses. Its not my goal to just win for the session, I want to maximize those winnings. If football coaches got an extra $1000 for every point they won by, you can bet that there would be a lot more running up the score in blowout games. But in poker, bad players, and even some decent players make bad plays while winning despite this truth. They pass up profitable situations because they don't want to have an unlucky hand ruin their "win". They make bad calls because "its ok, I can afford it, I'm up tonight".

So I guess the whole point of this rant is that, when you play poker, play to win the most money, which may not necessarily correlate to winning the most frequently. I know this is way different than most of my posts and is sorta off topic but I was thinking about this disconnect between how the human mind usually thinks and how it should think in poker and wanted to share it. This is just one example of how sometimes the best play in poker does not follow what most people would logically deduce at first glance.
Very insightful observation.
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:06 AM   #199
cushlash
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

Had a somewhat disappointing day yesterday. Basically it came down to two hands where I went with my read and was wrong. Both are spots where I would fold against a normal player and maybe still should have folded. On the first I flopped two pair with 97 on a T97 board. A player bet into a limped pot, I raised, and he over-bet all in. I had seen this player overplay a few medium strength hands on the flop and so I thought he would do this with a lot of weaker draws like pair+flush draw or pair+straight draw as well as TPGK or a limped JJ/QQ. So I called and he ended up having 68 for a flopped straight which held up. Later I saw him raise the river having hit two pair when there were 4 clubs on board (he was sitting next to me so I saw his hand when he looked at it). He seemed to be thinking that hands have absolute value so I'm still not sure whether the call was a mistake or not.

Then a bit later I raised JJ from early position and was 3-bet by the SB. In a previous session I saw him flat pre-flop with AA, once against another player and once against me, so I discounted this from his range somewhat. His sizing was also on the big side and because he was on a short-ish stack, I decided to shove. He called and had AA.

So both hands I went with a read that turned out, at least this time, to be wrong. Shortly after the second hand I left, a bit earlier than planned just because I was starting to feel a bit tilted, something that rarely happens to me anymore. I was too focused on getting my money back and so I wasn't paying attention to details anymore and was just auto-piloting, waiting for a winner. This is definitely a bad mindset so I left before it could cost me anymore.

Today went much better and I am really happy with my play. Early in the session I flopped a set of aces on an AT4 flop after having 3-bet preflop. My opponent raised on the flop, I went all-in and he folded. I guess I could have slow-played but once he raises me on the flop I didn't think he was ever folding. He later said he had KJ and thought I had QQ.

Later I would lose most of my profit by value-owning myself with 99 on an A96T8 board. I bet all three streets and my opponent had TT, having turned a better set.

I also lost some in a pot with QQ where a player called my 3-bet and a bet on a T74 flop. The turn came the K and we both checked, and the river was the 8. He led out with a bet and I thought for a while and folded. He would later tell me he rivered 2 pair with 78. I'm not sure if I should bet the turn, but I don't think I'm getting called by worse or getting better to fold so I don't see what a bet accomplishes. I also don't think he's bluffing the river all that often so I folded.

After those two hands I ended up back at even for the night, but much happier with my play than yesterday. Still getting in trouble with some hands, but today I think I got better, whereas yesterday I was on meh-autopilot.
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:42 AM   #200
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Re: cushlash in Vegas; TLDR

I really enjoy this thread. I love that you show the hands and the thinking behind them
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