I try to stab people if they want to run it more than once. If you're playing over 10/20 then that is up to the table. Don't waste my ****ing time just because you think you have the right, at the lowest stake tables in the room.

99.275% confirmed. This is from my TR last November.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=136

If we were at that table together, I'm pretty sure we would have walked hand-in-hand over to that giant ferris wheel across the street, ridden it to the top, and f-ing jumped. It was absolutely brutal. On top of how annoying that is in general, there were like 4 short stacks, so, low stakes BigO, every hand was AIPF or on the flop, 4 of five ways.

Hey, thanks for chiming in! I was wondering if anyone who was at the table might actually stumble upon this.

Re:

1. I do remember you vaguely and NCJ actually stopped to talk to you for a bit if I recall correctly. The 7 seat, which would have been directly to my right definitely saw the first switch, the 6 seat did as well and the 5 seat which was Vegas P. saw it also. I know, because they made some comment along the lines of "you guys are crazy/wild" lol type of banter. I mean, I offered the switch to the 9 seat pretty openly to where the 7 and 6 were able to hear it. I'm fairly sure about all of this, but I could be slightly off and I'm not suggesting your account isn't correct.

3. Hmm, ok! I was actually fairly sure, until this point, that the 3 seat (Asian dude playing out of racks) said something like "I don't agree with this and y'all are holding up the game and I want a floor."

4. Ahhh ok, gotcha! Thanks for breaking that down! I remember the floor saying that it wasn't allowed and telling us to not do it again, but didn't know what the exact violation was.

5. Hahaha Man, the 5 seat was something else for sure! Actually forgot about that dude and his antics. I do remember something about taking an extended smoke break coming from that side of the table.

Again, thanks for coming in here and posting as you saw things unfold that night. I remember some small details a little differently, but I could easily be wrong about who called the floor. I'll try and contact the poker room manager tomorrow and see how it goes. Thanks for offering to help!

Do you understand how ****ed up your actions would have looked to a railbird, or someone just sitting down? Don't unban this clown, MGM.

I think it is an easy mistake to make, and I would only point one thing out to the OP as he prepares to make his case to get unbanned.

By all means describe what happened thoroughly and accurately, but I wouldn't keep harping on it being in the dark, because if someone were actually a sleight of hand expert and they decided to cheat in a phony blind card swap, no one would ever know, it would have looked exactly the same as your scenario, and they'd be telling exactly the same story about it being done in the dark and no one at the table thought they were cheating, etc.

No clue if any of this matters, or if you are likely to be let back in or not.

I've played a handful of sessions of late night PLO at Venetian where we got the floor to allow the dealer to give us 5 cards, 6 cards, 7 cards; to allow no limit betting; to deal out the whole board with no betting; to deal 1 flop card before the first betting round; to deal 1 flop card face down, only to be revealed after the last betting round, off the top of my head... Were these gaming violations? It sure made the game fun. I don't think anyone felt cheated or taken advantage of.

re: the gaming violation part

I have no idea at all. I was just explaining what the floor guy said. He didn't provide an example, but he said that they have to follow the game as it's defined (I'm not remembering his exact words here), or it's a gaming violation. Maybe he was wrong about that...no idea.

Completely shocked by most of the reactions. Especially with regard to OP supposed ‘attitude’. I would fight this ban up to the supreme court. Yes, OP made a mistake. An honest mistake.

This is how I think it should be handled:

Security: ‘Are you here next month, son?’
OP: ‘No’
Security: ‘Are you banned next month’
OP: ‘GG’

Also; people blaming OP for probably getting the dealer fired need professional help.

please to explain. Use small words since i'm apparently a moron

Person X makes a mistake without knowing he made that mistake and with zero intention of making that mistake.

Now, if you blame person X (or worse, want them to apologise) for this mistake you are – in my book – a terrible person.

You left out that if dealer was fired it was because the player broke the rules. It was because the dealer didn't manage the game and enforce the rules.

You also can't go broke because someone else "puts you all in." You go broke because you put your chips in.

Amen.

By the way; dpd said

That's is not blaming OP imo so bpd should not even be offended by my words. The fact that he is makes me believe he blames OP, not his first post.

OP - if the ME guy was so fixated on your "lucky seat", why not just swap seats with him?

Does anyone else see a big issue here opening up major angles? I lose a large pot to the guy that OP swapped cards with, and I say - "look at the video - those weren't his cards, he cheated, I'm not paying and in fact his hand should be dead and pot awarded to me".

That said - lifetime ban is definitely overkill and I would fight it.

Person X was careless, if not intentionally reckless, and this lead to the loss of a job and a significant impact to somebody's life all because this guy wanted to have a "good time" in Vegas. If the OPs version is correct and the dealer did nothing and it took another player to call the floor over, the dealer almost certainly got fired or at the very least had some sort of disciplinary action which would make him/her much more susceptible to getting fired in the future.

Person X expressing zero remorse in his OP about what most likely happened to the dealer - in my book - makes him a terrible person.

MUTB, it's not all that difficult to gauge whether a particular type of individual would do this

It's all about the gaming violation and the casino not being allowed to deviate from the game protocol it filed with the GCB. The primary interest of casino security is to protect the casino, not to protect players from cheating, but to make sure the casino gets its rake and that nothing happens to endanger its gaming license.

You didn't cheat; you endangered the casino's gaming license. From the casino's point of view there is almost nothing worse you can do and you become a very dangerous person.

I hope you get your ban changed. You need to make sure the casino knows that you understand that the casino's rules and protocol must be followed and that you will do so in the future. It won't hurt to tell them you're sorry.

Ok, I'll keep that in mind. I guess the only reason I kept repeating that part is to illustrate that the cards weren't looked at and were still lying as they were after having been dealt by the dealer. I have no idea how sleight of hand works, but in my case I sat back, or rather wasn't leaning over the table, and let the dude pick two of my cards in plain sight and slide me two of his.

I realize how big of a deal game protocol is now and finally understand how the GCB comes into play. I'm definitely sorry for my actions and hope I get another chance.

I called the poker room just a little while ago, provided my info, explained the incident briefly and made them aware of this thread, so they could read over it at their own time rather than me tying them up on the phone for an extended period of time.

Thanks for your post!

Good luck, but I don't think you're going to get your ban lifted with a call to the poker room.

Taking for granted that this happened out in the open and the dealer could easily see what is happening, then it would be the dealer's fault for not controlling the game and allowing this to happen. If something is going on in his game and he has lost control he should be calling over the floor if people are not listening to him, not sitting back and letting people do whatever they want. You are essentially excusing someone for not properly doing their job.

The dealer that got fired got fired for a combination of his own fault and OP's fault, plus a little bit of collective fault from the poker community as a whole.

The dealer's job is to enforce the rules and has primary responsibility when this go south. No question.

But we as a poker community often blame dealers for being killjoys whenever we bend the rules a little, and the culture is that the dealers allow a little degeneracy. There's a grey zone that we - players and dealers - have agreed to allow because it makes the game fun and we tip a little extra because the dealers don't scold us like the children we are.

OP clearly pushed the edge of this grey zone. As soon as someone makes even the slightest objection, it should be shut down. And the dealers can pin the blame on the floor, "Don't make Bill come to the the table, he's having a bad day," or whatever, but basically if you know you're toeing the line you have to watch your step. OP should feel a little bad. Not "I'll pay your rent until you find a new job" bad but a little.

Ultimately, it's still the dealer's job to run the game the way his employer dictates. He should have escalated his warnings before the floor got called.

"Hey, guys, maybe this isn't such a good idea. Find something else to amuse yourselves?"

"Hey, guys, I could get in trouble for this if the floor sees."

"Hey, guys, if any player objects, I have to call the floor and he's going to have a fit. Please stop."

Op I'll let you know my stance on this matter and it's quite simple. If I ever caught someone switching cards in the middle of a hand with the person next to them they would be getting more than a ban from a casino. I would be getting a ban for assault. It may be fun and games to you but the fact is you are effing with other people's money. Don't for one second think your above the game and can do what you want with no repercussions.
Rules are made to protect the players and integrity of the game, by switching cards you are now affecting everyone else at the table whether you see it or not. Stop trying to make excuses for why you were justified for doing something wrong. Your obv a poker player and should know the rules. Your playing in a full game in a casino not in your dorm room with a friend!
Once again rules are there to protect the game, it shouldn't be on the floors shoulders to figure out if you were cheating or not. That's why a rule was made!

I'll do whatever I have to, but started with a call to Adam(poker room manager) as suggested by WorldsBiggestNit earlier in this thread. Asked to speak to him, but was told he no longer works there and spoke to one of the floors for a while, who suggested taking down my info and passing it along to Sean, who is the new director and having him look at this.

I'd even be willing to fly out, if asked to do so, in order to apologize in person and to promise to refrain from anything in the future that could be misconstrued as either cheating or would be a gaming violation.

If the dealer called the floor as described by ddt and agreed with by OP, why would he have been fired?

Isn't the correct action for the dealer to call the floor in this case?