Instead of 2/5/T, why not 5/5/5? Whichever structure creates more multi-way pots is probably better for the game.

Maybe, in a normal game where you can put your opponent on something like an unimproved AK. But if 9 players see the flop? Don't forget that you will rarely know where you're at because there was no preflop raising and calling to help define the hands.

I play LHE almost exclusively.

Can 3 blind games survive at the lower limits where there are many who will just go broke faster.

Lol no amount of blinds or antes or straddles will be able to save nlhe. It's a dead game. The edges between good and bad players are just way too big. The good players are simply too good, and the bad players need to dedicate way more time at improving/ in the lab than they have the patience and time for.

I've said this in other threads- the edge between a pro and a rec is so big that they are literally drawing dead to have multiple, somewhat consistent big wins. It's not a fun game.

You're trying to do the impossible- put magic back in the bottle. The reason why nlhe was so juicy back in the day was because the edges between good and bad players were much smaller- which meant everyone had lots of memorable big days- which meant tons of money got injected into the games/ the stakes got so big. You cannot recreate that.

That's exactly why other games have gained popularity among the degens. Because edges are much smaller- which means degens have much more frequent and much bigger wins than in nlhe.

Make the max buy-in less than 100BB.

that doesn't fix anything..

no while good players today are obviously better than good players 10 years ago the issue isn't the edges being bigger today bw a good player and bad player. it's there are a lot more good or at least decent players and a lot less horrible players than there were 10 years ago.

There are less bad players today because the edges in NL are so freaking huge that they don't stand a chance to survive for very long.

like in a PL mix or a limit mix a pretty big fish can survive for years and delude themselves into thinking their downswing is just variance. That never happens in NL- the bad players get absolutely smoked- they know they are outmatched- and they stop playing.

Given similar ratios of bad players to good players, I think bad players go broke faster in PLO than NLHE. Part of that is because the bad player will think that 5/T PLO is the same level as 5/T NL, when it plays much bigger.

I've never beat a fish so bad that he's given up playing NL. I've done that at PLO.

Then you're not very good at NL? Back when I played regularly, fish and bad regs would quit/table select away/ never play pots with me. It's really easy for a fish/bad reg to realize how outclassed they are in a game like NL. It only takes maybe one ace high or king call calldown, or a c/r river bluff for all the chips in a huge pot for them to feel uncomfortable/ outclassed. It's much harder for a badreg/fish to realize it when playing other poker variants- many cases simply because equities run closer together (no matter how good you are).

What you're describing about PLO isn't that they don't stand a chance- it's that the game plays bigger than they expect and the swings are larger than NLHE. Doesn't matter if it's a pro or a fish- if they get killed in the first couple sessions of PLO- the natural reaction is to swear it off/curse the game. But it has very little to do with a skill gap- they just don't like so much gamble. <<<<--- and that's exactly why PL mix works so well- it reduces some of the gamble so nits/tighter players can play/help prop the game up during slow times while at the same time keeping the degens happy.

Like if you're pro/ aspiring pro etc then you should be doing whatever you can to promote mixed PL/NL games for the sake of longevity/ your bottom line.

Red Rock has been running a 1/2/4 mandatory button straddle game the past few weeks that has been pretty good....always depends on the lineup, but good action usually. Too bad they still haven't figured out how to show it as a separate game on bravo yet, I know that must be real tough.

Damn really? I would def play there midweek if I saw it on bravo.

Edit: now that I think about it, I have noticed 2 "1/2 NL" waitlists on bravo and was wondering why, this makes sense then.

Lol bravo might be the single worst thing for live poker in the last few years. The only people that use it are grinders/ experienced players... why would you want a good game to be posted on bravo?

Also button straddles are the worst for the game. Not sure if you're trolling with that part or not.

Completely missed the button straddle part. Yea no thanks, I'm on the train of "button straddles are the devil"

Button straddles where action starts with the SB are the dumbest thing ever. Specially in the typically nitty 1/2 & 1/3 games in Vegas. Far more likely to kill the action than to juice it.

Now a 1/2/4 with a button ANTE would be an interesting game. A 1/2/4 mandatory UTG straddle is essentially a 2/4 game with a short max buy-in. I don't get it.

if bad players are table selecting away from you you're doing something very wrong.

Dude i'm not sure what you're insinuating. But for the record i'm one of the most friendly players in any given lineup. I'm not a nit, and I like to drink. I've said this in another thread but there have been players who have asked my poker friends in the area about me/ why haven't a come back/ how i've been etc... and I haven't set foot in the place/ seen those guys for over 2 years. That says a lot.

You get to a certain point with NLHE where there's literally no amount of drinks, or straddles or friendliness that will keep a game going/ fish interested- especially in small player pools. I'm not saying that because i'm the best nlhe player ever. In fact i'm not- but for the player pool i play in it's literally shooting a fish in barrel. It would be like a professional athlete/ or steroid user competing in a local middel aged sport league- everyone knows they are at a disadvantage against that guy.

Like when you never get payed off when you have a good hand, but you always pay off someone else with the second best hand, and when you bluff you just owned, or when your opponent is bluffing but you always seem to fold- its not fun and you'll quit. The skill gap is just soooooo freaking big in NLHE between a recreational player and a serious player it's not even funny.

You have 3 players who have money invested in the pot instead of two. That's a pretty good thing in games where players are calling a way wider range preflop if they already had to put money in. Not too different from the guy who limps and then cold calls the 20BB 3bet because he doesn't like to fold because he already decided to play the hand.
He's just saying you are doing something wrong if bad players table change away from you. And he's right about that for pretty obvious reasons, unless you don't like money.

They might be unhappy to see me when they sit down, but I can't imagine being so obnoxious that people would table change away from me. If I table select well, then I am more like a tax they have to pay to sit at a fun table.

I make it pretty clear to other players that PLO is a game of skill and not just a game of pushing chips back and forth.

One thing that makes it more fun for fish are multi-way pots. In theory, PLO is a game for that because bad players play too many hands, but them at a table more than half of which is tight, competent players with a live VPIP of 20% or under, and it can be painful for them. So, I would look for a structure that makes it harder for a good player to isolate pre-flop. Three blinds make it a bit harder to do that than two. People have played around with the pot-limit pre, no-limit post-flop structure in hold em tournaments.

Action starts UTG, skips button to SB if no raise, plays in turn if raised. Game has been nuts with certain lineups, terrible with other lineups. Depends who's in the game.

What i'm saying is all the drinks, straddles, dressing down, stupid talk, and friendliness in the world won't stop a losing player from eventually quitting you. Of course there are short term benefits but in the long game- after getting owned too many times in way too many spots the fish simply give up.

It's much more pronounced in smaller casinos/ poker clubs than in places like LV/LA that have huge player pools. And while it was rare for someone to snap quit a table I joined- it was very common for seat changes, and having open seats behind me (and staying open) because they knew it was the worst seat in the room to be in. And by far the most common thing was players avoiding pots with me/ giving up way too early as if I was the plague. and again i'm a super nice, friendly, non nitty person- it all comes down to skill/"being too good" or "running too hot".

I also think its super arrogant to assume that a recreational player is a stupid person irl. It's not exactly rocket science to know you're being owned every session by the same players in spots you thought were "impossible" like bluff catching with Ace or King high, or value betting 3rd pair or whatever. I mean it's ridiculously sick and advantageous to be able to put someone on a very narrow range- but with it there is no chance in hell the other side is having a good time/ wants to continue for very long.

All i'm saying is promoting 3 blinds simply doesn't do enough when a good player has such an enormous skill advantage. Making slight variations doesn't improve a losing players chance of being a winner or even improve their chances of having a big winning session. All it is is an artificial, short term solution for an impossible fish friendly game. If you want more action, and bigger pots, and fish to be happier with bigger and more frequent winning sessions- the easiest solution is simply promoting a different game with smaller edges.


I'm beginning to doubt you've ever played PLO before. And you're doing everyone including yourself a disservice by knocking down PLO (and I assume promoting NLHE lololol). Dude a random fish that knows very little about PLO can sit in a random low-mid stakes game- play over 50% of hands and have a semi decent shot at running up 800bbs playing a 100cap game. When is the last time you saw ANYONE let alone a fish book an 800bb win playing 100cap nlhe?

I've seen a lot of fish take a few shots at PLO and quit because they don't understand why they keep losing big pots with the second nuts.