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TheTyman9 · 07-01-2012, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp00053

Lol saying theft and tilt in this case is different is the same as saying .. I didn't shoot the person. . .the gun I was holdin in my hand did. bottom line is no matter how you dress it up, he apparently used funds without permission. But as you also said he says hell pay it back, hopefully the other people will work together with him to fix it

may be incorrect but the way i read it i don't think he said that he tilted it off when he wasn't playing on their money anymore. It sounded like he was still backed by them to play and that he just played really badly in the games that he is supposed to be playing. Obviously that still isn't right but it would be a different situation for sure then if OP thought the stake was done and tilted it all away because he didn't want to send it to them. OP should clear this part of it up.

Craggoo · 07-01-2012, 03:39 PM

I’m going to try and recall in chronological order what happened from the beginning to the end of the stake. Near the end of May, I decided to seek a stake for the HU hyper SNGs on Stars. I applied to several different backers. Ibavly/Tyler were the first ones to respond so naturally they were the backers I ended up going with. In our initial talks, I made it very clear that I had to be at 30s by the end of the month assuming of course I managed to beat each level between wherever they would start me and the 30s. I told them my roommate would more than likely be leaving by the end of the month and that was why I needed to be at 30s by the end of the month. It would be very difficult to pay the bills by grinding the micro hypers. They guaranteed me they would be moving me up quickly if my results warranted it. After an initial sweat session, Ibavly decided that they would be happy to stake me. They started me at the $7 games on June 1st. It was mostly a lot of breakeven / running bad quite a bit. Eventually, I got it all back in one pretty insane day. A few days later, I asked them to move me up to 15s since I had beaten the $7 games at that point. This is where the problems began. Every day it was “play a few more games at the $7 stake and then we’ll evaluate your results”. There are only a few things you need to know in order to evaluate whether it would be worth it to move up and those are:
1) EV ROI
2) Actual ROI
3) Any Preflop Leaks
I didn’t have any hands that were losing more than -.5BB/hand (which would be a preflop leak in the hu hypers). I told Ibavly this info along with my EV ROI and actual ROI. Those are really the only things you need to know in order to “evaluate” results. I asked them to commit 100% to a moveup after I reached a certain amount of games assuming of course the 3 items above are solid. They wouldn’t. It was at this point I talked to one of their previous stakes and he told me this was pretty standard practice for them to never guarantee anything. Realize at this point that they had promised to move me up quickly. Actions speak louder than words and clearly their actions are screaming “we don’t like moving up our stakes”. I didn’t want to have to deal with difficult backers so it was at that point I told them I was leaving the stake. I sent them their profit split and original stake back. A day or two later, I received a message from Ibavly stating they expected me to pay a $900 cancellation fee. That was the first time I heard about that. Trust me, I would never agree to any staking agreement with a cancellation fee in it. That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard of. I only checked the staking agreement originally for what we had talked about (profit split, rakeback split, etc). Should I pay some part of the cancellation fee? Yes. Should I pay the entire thing? Most certainly not. I admit I made a mistake but not a $900 mistake. I do have an idea of what I want to settle for that should satisfy both parties.

TheTyman9 · 07-01-2012, 04:42 PM

You definitely owe them all of the $900. The fact that you didn't read your contract before agreeing to it is really dumb and completely your own fault. In the future I would suggest that you not take something like that so lightly. I'm guessing that this contract would have taken you maximum 5-10 mins to read if not a lot less. You owe them the money and if they let you settle for less it will only be because they don't think you are going to own up to it fully ever. The $900 penalty as we understand it is there because they gave you coaching which made you into a winner and tbh there is nothing crazy about the fact that they didn't want to move you up to the 15s right away after you struggled to even be a slight winner at the 7s.

Syker12 · 07-01-2012, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gudcallm8

Syker doesnt seem to be answering any of the points i have presented in this thread, i have added bigloser2448(who said about arbitrating) but until syker/kev/ben answer the points i have provided i cant do anything else i have answer my side of the argument and made my points very clear imo.

I have a life.....

Im not on 2+2 24/7 chill out, you know ill respond.

To clear up your points. I have spoke to Kev regarding the extra $500 you lost when you were told not to play $15's, obviously i do not know who the **** told you that it should be added ontop of MU (probably Ben as Kev was away) but thats obviously incorrect, i wasnt aware of the whole situation. So obviously you dont owe that extra, just forget about that.

I have no idea who some of these fanboys are here posting but some of the stuff that there posting is pretty comical.

Kev is happy for someone to arbitrate, i can speak to you Kris on skype through the week. I work through the day though.

Somehow your trying to present yourself as the victim and its tilting beyond belief. You had 8 months off poker whilst your stars account was locked (all while having $1k of our money) in your account, you come back and start 30 tabling $8/$15 180s, your results were not great so you dont think your staker has a right to move you down in stakes if he thinks thats best for the both of you?! Not to mention the fact you degend off the last $650 of your roll.

If you can post skype logs of you being totally dropped from the stable then your MU does not and could never stand and i will ask Mod's to remove everything ive posted.

ibavly · 07-01-2012, 05:42 PM

man craggoo your memory is quite faulty. I guess I do have to write up a response.

thess123 · 07-01-2012, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craggoo

I’m going to try and recall in chronological order what happened from the beginning to the end of the stake. Near the end of May, I decided to seek a stake for the HU hyper SNGs on Stars. I applied to several different backers. Ibavly/Tyler were the first ones to respond so naturally they were the backers I ended up going with. In our initial talks, I made it very clear that I had to be at 30s by the end of the month assuming of course I managed to beat each level between wherever they would start me and the 30s. I told them my roommate would more than likely be leaving by the end of the month and that was why I needed to be at 30s by the end of the month. It would be very difficult to pay the bills by grinding the micro hypers. They guaranteed me they would be moving me up quickly if my results warranted it. After an initial sweat session, Ibavly decided that they would be happy to stake me. They started me at the $7 games on June 1st. It was mostly a lot of breakeven / running bad quite a bit. Eventually, I got it all back in one pretty insane day. A few days later, I asked them to move me up to 15s since I had beaten the $7 games at that point. This is where the problems began. Every day it was “play a few more games at the $7 stake and then we’ll evaluate your results”. There are only a few things you need to know in order to evaluate whether it would be worth it to move up and those are:
1) EV ROI
2) Actual ROI
3) Any Preflop Leaks
I didn’t have any hands that were losing more than -.5BB/hand (which would be a preflop leak in the hu hypers). I told Ibavly this info along with my EV ROI and actual ROI. Those are really the only things you need to know in order to “evaluate” results. I asked them to commit 100% to a moveup after I reached a certain amount of games assuming of course the 3 items above are solid. They wouldn’t. It was at this point I talked to one of their previous stakes and he told me this was pretty standard practice for them to never guarantee anything. Realize at this point that they had promised to move me up quickly. Actions speak louder than words and clearly their actions are screaming “we don’t like moving up our stakes”. I didn’t want to have to deal with difficult backers so it was at that point I told them I was leaving the stake. I sent them their profit split and original stake back. A day or two later, I received a message from Ibavly stating they expected me to pay a $900 cancellation fee. That was the first time I heard about that. Trust me, I would never agree to any staking agreement with a cancellation fee in it. That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard of. I only checked the staking agreement originally for what we had talked about (profit split, rakeback split, etc). Should I pay some part of the cancellation fee? Yes. Should I pay the entire thing? Most certainly not. I admit I made a mistake but not a $900 mistake. I do have an idea of what I want to settle for that should satisfy both parties.

Ok I will handle all of this in order. Numbers are based on the section of the post that are bolded.

1) You were still on pace to play 30s by the end of the month.

2) You were a winner over 2.2K games under our stake. How many games were you a loser in before you signed with us again?

3) You were the one who came up with the 3K game mark to evaluate, and we agreed we would evaluate at 3K and said that many times. That didn't change after you asked for it. There was no reason for you to keep asking after that-we would have let you know if we were prepared to do it before.

4) You are forgetting games played and a few other things.

5) lol?

6) You asked us to commit to moving you up after 3K games and nothing else. We said we would have to evaluate/look at your game. You flipped ****.

7) I thought someone who has played poker as much as you would realize that nothing in the game is "guaranteed".

8) hmmm. Seems interesting considering we've moved up more than a few of our players.

9) how do you know the difference between difficult backers and non difficult backers? We were your first ones.

10) If you had read your contract, it wouldn't have been.

11) But you did.

12) The most ridiculous thing I've heard of is to not read your contract, asking the same question once a day for weeks, stealing free coaching, etc etc

13). I'm still unsure of why you shouldn't pay the full amount. You agreed to a contract. You left the contract. You pay the buyout. What else is there to it?

ibavly · 07-01-2012, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craggoo

I’m going to try and recall in chronological order what happened from the beginning to the end of the stake. Near the end of May, I decided to seek a stake for the HU hyper SNGs on Stars. I applied to several different backers. Ibavly/Tyler were the first ones to respond so naturally they were the backers I ended up going with. In our initial talks, I made it very clear that I had to be at 30s by the end of the month assuming of course I managed to beat each level between wherever they would start me and the 30s. I told them my roommate would more than likely be leaving by the end of the month and that was why I needed to be at 30s by the end of the month. It would be very difficult to pay the bills by grinding the micro hypers.
They guaranteed me they would be moving me up quickly if my results warranted it.

This is all a load of BS. First of all it has no bearing on the situation. Second of all it is completely false. I can simply post the skype chat of our moving up negotiations so everything can be completely transparent. How can you try to sell this story when we have it all in writing?

This chat is all from a bit less than a week into the stake, not before he signed. Names changed to SNs, and filler taken out of the middle, but everything of any significance is in there.

[6/6/12 12:10:17 PM] Craggoo: i just wanted to throw this out as both a question and kind of a request
[6/6/12 12:10:49 PM] Craggoo: as long as my ev ROI is pretty decent, do you think you guys would be able to move me up to 15s, then to 30s (im happy sticking to 30s for a long time) every 3k games?
Notice that he is asking for 3k games. This is the thing that most perplexes me. He hadn't even finished the target he set for himself yet makes it sound like we were forcing him to play low.
[6/6/12 12:12:57 PM] Craggoo: the goal would be to play 3k 7s, 3k 15s, and 6k 30s in the month of June
[6/6/12 12:16:49 PM] ibavly: Let's deal with that when we come to it. I don't want to commit to anything this early in the stake.
[6/6/12 12:17:25 PM] Craggoo: okay well could you plz talk to Thess about it tomorrow
[6/6/12 12:19:12 PM] Craggoo: if you guys will do ^^^ then im going to try and bust out 750 games a day
[6/6/12 12:19:48 PM] ibavly: We're always talking about what stakes our horses should be playing. Rest assured, as soon as we're confident enough to move you up we will.
Really everything seemed reasonable at this point, was happy with where the stake was heading and certainly wasn't going to hold him back
[6/6/12 12:20:15 PM] ibavly: I'm not going to set a specific target volume though
[6/6/12 12:20:20 PM] Craggoo: i know that if you did put me in 30s that would be probably a pretty significant part of the staking roll
[6/6/12 12:21:16 PM] ibavly: thats not the biggest issue. We both have money behind, and aren't about to let +EV opportunities slip away.
[6/6/12 12:22:15 PM] Craggoo: the reason i really need this to happen is because i need to find a roommate in a few weeks time if i cant play high enough to at least pay for everything
[6/6/12 12:23:00 PM] Craggoo: with total expenses on my own its probably xxx a month and theres really no way i could do that at 7s or 15s without running at EV which is pretty optimistic
First time I hear about this. Not before the deal like he claims. Kind of odd that he never mentioned his roommate earlier considering the roommate plays the same stakes I do.
[6/6/12 12:23:28 PM] Craggoo: i think even if i had a really lousy run at 30s but was still winning i would easily hit that target
[6/6/12 12:25:27 PM] ibavly: yeah I get it, we're going to move you up as soon as we think is prudent. We just can't do anything else. Right now you're doing really well in EV, which is great, but 30s are way way harder than 7s, and I'm not nearly confident enough to say that you will be able to play those in 2 weeks time
[6/6/12 12:26:15 PM] Craggoo: okay well we'll have this convo again i guess when i crack 3k 7s and i'll see where im at at that point in time
...he left the stake before even playing 3k games
[6/6/12 12:26:32 PM] Craggoo: still going to try and grind out 750 7s a day
[6/6/12 12:26:36 PM] ibavly: right. gl and I hope for both of us that you do manage to shoot up the stakes

This is the first time he started pushing hard to be moved up fast. I was completely straightforward saying I wouldn't commit. Can you blame me? A losing player over 5k games one week into a stake wants a guarantee to be playing 2 levels higher in two weeks.

And no point did I have the intention not to move him up if he continued at this pace though. Everything seemed totally reasonable at this point. The blowup was totally unexpected and spontaneous, I'm still not sure where it came from, maybe has something to do with his mistaken memory of the circumstances.

Quote:

After an initial sweat session, Ibavly decided that they would be happy to stake me. They started me at the $7 games on June 1st. It was mostly a lot of breakeven / running bad quite a bit. Eventually, I got it all back in one pretty insane day. A few days later, I asked them to move me up to 15s since I had beaten the $7 games at that point.

I'd like to show this skypechat, but very simply, it doesn't exist. You never ever asked me to move you up to 15s. The closest you came to that was the requests for a guarantee at certain volume goals.

[6/10/12 4:54:55 PM] craggoo: i still want to play one more day at the 7s after this session which should bring my total played to something like 2800 or so
[6/10/12 4:55:08 PM] Craggoo: do you think we could discuss a moveup to the 15s at that point?
[6/10/12 4:55:27 PM] ibavly: yeah

We never got to that point, although the number had dropped by the time next day came around.

[6/11/12 5:44:58 AM] Craggoo: i hope this is my last day at 7s
[6/11/12 5:45:24 AM] Craggoo: end of today I hope to be around 2600 games... a bit short of 3k but 3000... 2600... pretty damn close imo

I didn't mind so much cause I was planning on moving him up soon anyways.

Quote:

This is where the problems began. Every day it was “play a few more games at the $7 stake and then we’ll evaluate your results”.

As I've shown, that never happened. You did not a single time reach the goal you set for yourself for when you wanted us to consider moving you up.

Quote:

There are only a few things you need to know in order to evaluate whether it would be worth it to move up and those are:
1) EV ROI
2) Actual ROI
3) Any Preflop Leaks
I didn’t have any hands that were losing more than -.5BB/hand (which would be a preflop leak in the hu hypers). I told Ibavly this info along with my EV ROI and actual ROI. Those are really the only things you need to know in order to “evaluate” results.

I mean this just shows a lack of mathematical understanding. Actual ROI is completely irrelevant. a 3% actual ROI/1% ev and a -2% actual/1% EV are the exact same as far as their status when backed by me.

The preflop leaks thing is completely lol, and I have no idea where you got the idea that it makes any sense. To give a simple counter example that you can understand, if you're losing -.5bb/hand with AA you have a leak right there. You can't just check that number and claim you are perfect at a very difficult skill.

Quote:

I asked them to commit 100% to a moveup after I reached a certain amount of games assuming of course the 3 items above are solid. They wouldn’t.

Other than the convo posted above you never asked me to guarantee anything for you. You talked with tyler and he can choose if he wants to talk about that, but basically he didn't guarantee anything because he said it was 100% up to me. For some reason you took that incredibly personally.

Quote:

It was at this point I talked to one of their previous stakes and he told me this was pretty standard practice for them to never guarantee anything. Realize at this point that they had promised to move me up quickly. Actions speak louder than words and clearly their actions are screaming “we don’t like moving up our stakes”. I didn’t want to have to deal with difficult backers so it was at that point I told them I was leaving the stake. I sent them their profit split and original stake back.

Not going to respond to the first part its completely out of your ass, but for the second part I should mention that you refused to send me an audit when I requested one, saying 'just look at SS'. I didn't want to push it since you had our money and you were going crazy.

You also refused to talk about the RB. We offered you 60% RB because you were supernova, but you insisted to send us only 40% at the goldstar exchange rate.

Quote:

A day or two later, I received a message from Ibavly stating they expected me to pay a $900 cancellation fee. That was the first time I heard about that. Trust me, I would never agree to any staking agreement with a cancellation fee in it. That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard of.

This is literally a couple minutes after telling me he was jumping ship

[6/14/12 7:48:34 AM] ibavly: Are you going to be paying the buyout you agreed to in the contract or do you just not care
[6/14/12 7:49:17 AM] Craggoo: whats tylers email ill look at what it says
[6/14/12 7:56:57 AM] Craggoo: maybe maybe not dunno at this point until i talk with the other person who is afk atm
[6/14/12 7:57:24 AM] Craggoo: at worst pay none of it, at best pay all of it, most likely pay some part of it

And to make sure he could never claim what he is claiming here I was careful to write:

[6/14/12 6:16:11 PM] ibavly: I just want to make sure it is 100% clear that from our perspective you owe us $900 and anything else (unless we decide to allow some other amount) would be a violation of the contract you agreed to with us.

I left an opening there because I didn't want to have to take it to negative feedback.

He refused to talk anymore though and made it sound like he was done with us

its getting to be close to a week since the end of the stake with no contact from you, you have not fulfilled your end of the contract. If we do not hear from you soon we will be turning to 2p2
[6/19/12 12:34:36 AM] craggoo: gl

Quote:

I only checked the staking agreement originally for what we had talked about (profit split, rakeback split, etc). Should I pay some part of the cancellation fee? Yes. Should I pay the entire thing? Most certainly not. I admit I made a mistake but not a $900 mistake. I do have an idea of what I want to settle for that should satisfy both parties.

So your defense is that you did not read the contract?

I left that opening for you in my post, and I let you know through D.S. that we are willing to negotiate. Why did you wait several weeks to talk to us and make some feeble attempt at flaming us?

I hope you follow through on your debt. I have no clue what has happened to you over the past few weeks, maybe something irl, because this is nothing like the person who I was dealing with before you flipped out when you seemed totally content and I was thoroughly invested in making you a good player and bringing you up the stakes.

gudcallm8 · 07-01-2012, 07:20 PM

Quote: