View: Predatory Coaching Happens Way Too Often and Training Sites Need to Fix That - Page 9 - Poker Coaches

fees · 02-17-2010, 03:18 PM

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Originally Posted by insidemanpoker

what happened to you at BF? That was so fail.

I figured out it was a stupid idea and now you rugrats can't steal my secrets

solow · 02-17-2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fees

I figured out it was a stupid idea and now you rugrats can't steal my secrets

you were battling it out with Don Nguyen for worst coach there, don't kid yourself

Pokerdemic · 02-17-2010, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fees

I figured out it was a stupid idea and now you rugrats can't steal my secrets

lol. does that mean no second edition of the ebook?

CardSharpCook · 02-17-2010, 03:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Digby

How good a golfer is tiger woods coach?

None of the world's top golf coaches are champion golfers. Why should poker be different?

Ya, this is the thing. Think of head coaches in NCAA and pro leagues. How many of these guys played at some podunk school or simply dedicated their careers to learning how to coach without any playing experience after high school? Of course, just like OP, plenty believe that being great or having been great at a sport translates into being a good teacher. Just as some people don't have the mental make-up to be a good player, plenty of great players don't have the mental make-up to be a good coach.

I'm sure there are plenty of poker coaches that are just not good, but the correlation between skill as a coach and skill as a player isn't as great as OP seems to think. Knowing "how to beat games" isn't that unique of a skill. knowing how to get through to a student is much more unique.

StreamlineR · 02-17-2010, 04:02 PM

i agree with cftw for once. I have alwasy handpicked my coaches, making sure they were currently beating the games at a very good rate and had good references.
A lot of coaches are clear scam artists imo, and I'd bet that a decent amount know it.

I also think it's a good idea to give more transparence to the coaching industry, especially to the new/lowstakes player pool. I once posted a comment on a blogspot of someone who is actually good but probably not as good as he once were relatively to the field at his stakes, saying his rate was outrageous, and a lot of people, probably micro or low stakes dreamers/fanboys flamed me and told me he could charge whatever he wanted etc cuz welle he was who he is.

cftw · 02-17-2010, 04:30 PM

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Originally Posted by NANONUTS

I wish people would stop going on about how the coaches who made a load of money a few years ago still have relevant advice and how they have great 'conceptual' knowledge of the game. FFS, everyone who plays .50/1 and up knows the concepts these days. Everyone knows the odds and equities, ranges, keeping in worse hands, not being too exploitable in various situations. It's the correct execution of these concepts by keeping a level head and avoiding tilt that makes the difference these days.

Results from a few years ago mean jack sh*t these days. I made about $180K in 06 before I decided to quit and return to college. I wasn't playing anything near optimal poker. Games were soft as hell back a then. It can't be overstated how soft they were, seriously 5/10 then is probably equivalent to .10/.20 now - that's no joke. If you were one of the guys that made alot of money back then like myself , unless you are still playing and beating the games you shouldn't be coaching. Games are exponentially tougher these days, the landscape has completely changed, just cos you won big a few years back doesn't mean you are that much of a player. All that was required to win a few years ago was hit a set or TPTK and go allin and get paid. You know it as well as I do.

I would love to see these coaches who command big fees based on ancient results put in 100K hands at 2/4 or even 1/2 and see how the fare. A large majority of them would likely these stakes and I imagine some of them would get ass raped pretty badly. The reason these guys hardly even play anymore yet are so into coaching is because they know the games is up and they have no edge on the tables, their only edge is in marketing themselves to guys who are chasing their dreams. If they were still decent players they would be on the tables pulling in several hundred K/1 million+ a year like nanonoko or boywonder.

THIS THIS THIS.

insidemanpoker · 02-17-2010, 05:12 PM

i will say i dont really understand how people can be so ignorant that are considering $500+ an hour coaches. To do that, you must already have a general idea how you want to proceed in poker and have made real money. So instead of just randomly getting a respected name, you now have the luxury of checking out peoples stats. Why not just find the best damn player at the game you are trying to play and ask him for coaching?

If I want to learn 6m 24 tabling (which I do) I would approach nanonoko or someone of similar history. Why would I seek aejones, a negative winrate 25/50 HU player who is all talk or even PA or someone that is good but doesn't really specialize in what I am going to do. It's pretty easy to find the best few people in the field in which you are going to try to play and if you are talking about significant money (not a microstakes player) just find the best people based on results.

fish491 · 02-17-2010, 05:14 PM

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Originally Posted by fds

^^^

Are you really that stupid or are you leveling?

gg winny

themandude · 02-17-2010, 05:34 PM

That's what ive always said... once the a pro can't win anymore then turn to coaching.. i mean why else would they sell themselves out if their making great money?

mrrpb · 02-17-2010, 05:36 PM

Taylor you're welcome to coach me for free to see how your private coaching is doing

steel108 · 02-17-2010, 05:37 PM

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Originally Posted by cftw

This was true back in 2007, when MANY people were beating 25/50+, but games are just so dry today and the people that actually crush 25/50+ over a big sample don't really want to coach because they spend their time playing instead of advertising their "omg i'm so good" services, so their rates wouldn't be nearly high enough to get them to share their real skills.

However, MANY of those same people who were beating 25/50+ back in 2007 but not in 2009 decided, "Hey, I don't want to admit to myself I can't beat the games anymore, so I'll just use my roll acquired from giant fish + a heater to bumhunt 200/400 and play 10k hands a year and lose at that even and then charge people who don't know I don't actually win anymore 1k/hour!"

This is so true. THE BEST PLAYERS DON'T WANT TO COACH.

You look at the 1000NL crushers. Nanonoko, nuggetz, DrGiggy (he might not fit into this anymore since he is with BFP), they don't coach. They don't need to; games have gotten a ton higher as you move up; there is no reason for them to further toughen their field.

dwayman · 02-17-2010, 06:31 PM

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Originally Posted by steel108

This is so true. THE BEST PLAYERS DON'T WANT TO COACH.

You look at the 1000NL crushers. Nanonoko, nuggetz, DrGiggy (he might not fit into this anymore since he is with BFP), they don't coach. They don't need to; games have gotten a ton higher as you move up; there is no reason for them to further toughen their field.

Mentioning DrGiggy totally contradicts your argument, having said that I've become pretty suspicious of coaches and videos makers in the last few months. I'd say there are only about 10 video makers worth listening too across CR, DC, and Leggo and most of them are the founding members who have more to get from making good videos than players they recruit. And I'm pretty sure DrGiggy has a nice piece of BF.

steel108 · 02-17-2010, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwayman

Mentioning DrGiggy totally contradicts your argument, having said that I've become pretty suspicious of coaches and videos makers in the last few months. I'd say there are only about 10 video makers worth listening too across CR, DC, and Leggo and most of them are the founding members who have more to get from making good videos than players they recruit. And I'm pretty sure DrGiggy has a nice piece of BF.

DrGiggy actually really seems to enjoy teaching though. He doesn't offer 1 on 1 coaching except for real life friends. He loses more money by making videos than playing, but if he enjoys it that's all that matters.

Regarding fees, I loved his videos on BFP and was pretty pissed when he left. I agree that he does have some difficulty getting his thought process across, but if you put in the time, the videos were a gold mine.

aramfingal · 02-17-2010, 10:54 PM

but what if the only reason the coaches are losing now, is that they're not taking poker seriously any more because they no longer need the money since they're making so much money from coaching?

too eazy · 02-17-2010, 11:00 PM

losing is losing