ThinkItThrough Coaching Thread Review Accusation (Moved)

[NL__Fool]

Originally Posted by Jonkotemmer

Hello,

First of all I want to thank Gordon for the HU Mastermind Course! Few months ago I had about 1100$ bankroll left, I cashed out 1K for the HU Mastermind and started playing HU with my last 100$. And this are the results so far !





Now my next goal is to reach 100K. I might get some more coaching from Gordon to reach that goal safe and fast .

Anyways, what I want to say is that Gordon is an amazing coach. He helped me, and Im sure he will help you to!

Goodluck!

I really start to wonder how many of these accounts are "shills" for Think It thru and his coaching partners.

This guy for example claims he cashed out his entire bankroll (All but $100) a few months ago to buy ThinkItThru'sHu mastermind course and then posts a 188k hand graph where he is crushing. The smallest stake played being $25nl which leaves him 4 buy ins.

But http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/58...coach-1112474/

On Oct 13th he makes a post where he is Looking for a good HU coach because he has made enough money and can finally afford one! (So were you broke a few months ago or not?)

Yet his graph that he posted in this thread starts from Aug. 1 where he crushed from hand #1 yet he wasn't looking for a HU coach unil Oct 13th?

I'm confused, can you explain? If Gordon is "that good" and you attribute your success to him and/or his course, why are you looking for a coach on Oct 13?
Why are you posting a graph and attributing it to Gordon from Aug 1 onwards when you were looking for a coach on Oct 13?

[denis_n]

Gordon's HU course is for 50NL.

Jonkotemmer wrote in October: "I want to beat 50NL up to 400NL".

It makes sense.

P.S. http://bestpokercoaching.com/en/testimonials

[ThinkItThrough]

@NL Fool:

Thanks for taking so much of your time to go through posts etc. Your conclusions are very wrong, but i take your interest as a compliment for my students and myself.

The community needs people like you who sacrifice their time for the greater good.



Its actually quite simple:

1) He made some money, but was not satisfied.
2) He has living expenses and spends money
3) He cashed out, then took the HU course and crushed


Seems like in October he posted somewhere and asked about a HU coach. Then somebody linked him over.

Like many other students, he was nice and thanked me for helping. Then he posted a graph with a good recommendation for my coaching.


You can also PM him.


Thanks again for your time and have a nice day!

[ChicagoRy]

Moved from the coach's thread.

Since it doesn't look like anything is near proven, we can't have unsubstantiated accusations in a coach's thread, they turn out false a majority of the time and it's often unfair harm to a coach.

On the other end of things, we also don't want to raise the bar for the work the community does to hold coach's accountable for the credibility of their reviews or claims. Once in awhile a fraud is sniffed out and we don't want to discourage that. So the thread is moved here and stays public.

[NL__Fool]

Originally Posted by ThinkItThrough; [B

Then he posted a graph with a good recommendation for my coaching.[/B]


Thanks again for your time and have a nice day!

I would like to make it clear,This is not an accusation of your coaching ability, rather an accusation of shady and misleading marketing practices, from a complete unknown coach who won't release screen names

The graph is very misleading. It starts from Aug 1st. He wasn't looking for a HU coach until the middle of October. No idea when he hired you but it wasn't until at least then. By his own admission it was a "few months ago"

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/58...coach-1112474/

He was crushing from hand #1. Are you taking credit for his results before you started to coach him?
Most people do a before/after graph of results or an after, they do not include months and thousands of hands where he was already crushing and attribute it to that coach.

Coaches should not take credit for results they did nothing to help achieve and they should definately help correct misinformation.

[ChicagoRy]

- What did the student say when you PMed him NL Fool?

- How can you hold a coach liable for specific graph separation and filtering by a student?

- How is it not pretty believable that the guy could've been up between 5-10k during October on that graph? 60-70% of the success comes in the last 40-50% of the graph, which I'd assume takes place after October.

Looks a little hate filled.

Not that you don't have any points, but I mean if a guy throws a piece of litter on the ground you don't pull out a hand gun and shoot him.

Inquire a bit more professionally and respectfully next time imo before you start throwing shards of glass at people.

That's my opinion as a user, not a moderator.

The thread can carry on in both directions, that's why it is moved here, but not really a fan about how you brought this up, pretty angry and poor way of doing so and over reacting before it seems you have anywhere near a 95% level of confidence on what you're saying.

[ChicagoRy]

I mean, you open with this:

I really start to wonder how many of these accounts are "shills" for Think It thru and his coaching partners.

Yea? Really? I start to wonder how many of these accusations are made from angry people, jealous people or people with competing coaching programs.

Or how about we just make it interesting. I'll bet you blindly even money that the account isn't a shill. I haven't even IP checked it. We'll get the guy's Stars name, IP check location, talk to his poker buddies, etc. and if I can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the guy is real, you win. Wanna take that bet?

Didn't think so. Yet you have no problem typing it up in a coach's ad.

Disgusting.

[blackize]

X-posting from the other thread:

Just saw that Gordon is catching some **** here. I got some coaching from him shortly before black friday. He definitely knows his stuff and was able to give me some good insights into my game over just the course of one session of hand history review.

I've only had a couple coaches and Gordon was easily the best at spotting concepts I wasn't applying or understanding correctly and then explaining them in a very clear and easy to understand manner.

[MartL]

Im actually finding all the things that are going on in the forums regarding coaching quite eye opening. Theres defnatley what can only be described as a lot of grey areas in regards to this aspect of the game.

Its really hard for people looking for coaching to know who to trust especially as its so easy to fake graphs and with tracking sites not catching all hands. Personally ive had 3 different coaches and had a bad experience with one of them. Ive actually had coaching from the OP and to be fair he really opened my eyes to things that i should be looking for when looking for a coach and ways to check if people are legit in what they are saying so i really doubt this is some ego trip or anything like that and is more a way of trying to keep things all above board for the good of the comunity.

The problem with the coaching threads is that most people will post really good reviews and the people who have bad experiences dont bother to post a review, i myself am guilty of this, in fact im still probably owed some money by a coach who advertises in the coaching forum for sessions i never took because of his inavailablity that he never warned me about until i handed over my money.

There definatley has to be some better way to `police` the coaching side of poker.

[ChicagoRy]

If you spend 100s of dollars on coaching, and are not happy, why wouldn't you request a refund/post a review?

I don't understand your post really. If a coach owes you money for sessions, why would you not contact him/her for your money back? And if they refuse, why wouldn't you post it in their coaching thread? That is an example of the type of feedback that improves the quality of coaches in the community.

There's literally nothing that can help prevent a new student from being ripped off more than a dissatisfied student making their experience known.

And it's not like there is a high bar when accusing coaches. The stuff I have to decide whether or not to delete is more of "hrm, this guy that angrily is harassing this coach, is it possible he might potentially have a point or have stumbled upon a good point?" type decisions. We've never even come close to deleting a student saying "I had a session with this coach and it was bad." The bar is literally "if you've been coached by this coach, you can post" which is basically a zero barrier to entry for student feedback.

[MartL]

I just dont think people bother and just write it off as a bad experience. Thats what i did personally as i dont like confrontation be it face to face or even over the internet. Its like in my case i actually thought the coaching was beneficial but was not pre-warned about issues he may have with his internet connection and trying to sort out times for a session were painful at best,sometimes getting just a few hours notice or other times waiting at home all day because he "may have internet connection at some point". The final straw was booking a session and it not happening and i wrote the money off and went and found a new coach.

My posts here are pretty irrelevant to the topic but i wanted to chime in because having dealt with the OP i would be very surprised if he was doing this for personal gain rather than for the good of the community.

[denis_n]

BTW, does ThinkItThrough knows about this thread?
At least he can say something in his defense.

[OMGClayDol]

he posted itt already

[denis_n]

Originally Posted by OMGClayDol

he posted itt already

No, ThinkItThrough didn't answer in this one.

ChicagoRy copied his answer from ThinkItThrough's coach thread.

I was surprised to find this thread.
I continued to read ThinkItThrough's thread.