No problem. My feelings are thus though, someone has made an extremely helpful post to the majority of 2+2 users which is agreed upon by many other successful players. We need more of this in general on 2+2.

One player is extremely vocal in his dislike of the training drills (and imo has some issue with homey across the 2 threads), to an extent that really overshadows the purpose of the post. If he was allowed to post uncontested in both of these threads, that could lead to a relatively inexperienced player reading either this or homey's coaching thread and possibly wrongly assuming the information is incorrect or wrong just due to one persons (possible) vendetta. This not only affects the player in question but also to some extent homey's earning potential as a coach (as of which we have no evidence that he is anything other than an extremely solid ms/hs player). In which case why should one person be allowed to derail his threads so much at the possible detriment to the many hundreds that may read this thread?

I am happy not to post any more in the thread since i don't want to clutter it but think that a point should be made (and kept) in the thread that there is a possibility of cwoc being unobjective with his negativity shown towards op, that's all. If you want to delete this CR, then fine, i respect you as a mod here, I just think it should be kept in the thread in the interest of balance for any random reading it.

No you don't seem to understand the dialogue at all. I suggest you mug up on the following before going any further.


"Deliberate Practice in Poker

As documented by a slew of recent books like Talent is Overrated, The Genius in All of Us, or Talent Code, all the research in the field of expertise and expert performance shows that world class performers in a variety of competitive fields (Ex: Tiger Woods in golf, Bobby Fischer in chess, Yo-Yo-Ma in music, etc.) reached their elite level by following essentially the same formula: obsessively maintaining 3-4 hours per day of “deliberate practice” over a number of years."

3 people here (myself, pontylad and chicago) disagree with you on 90%+ of your points/issues, and other succesful poker players/coaches have implicitly disagreed with you by praising OP's OP. ever consider we're not all idiots?

?

Please do not personalise the discussion.

Chicagory has admitted that random equity drills are not a logical way to learn equities and suggests that the real problem is that players simply do not play enough volume. It is not difficult to incorporate the areas covered in the "drills" into reviewing sessions which have just been played and it would put them into a meaningful context, to use another of Chicagory's words. Linking hard work to reward has a logical appeal but it is far better to work hard AND smart. There are areas in poker in which the "deliberate practice" OP has read about would be the way forward but I don't think OP is applying the theory very well.

So Homey is playing mid stakes cash games and has given methods he thinks will help players. If you disagree cwoccwoc you'll have to give us details of the methods you use and the stakes you have achieved with them. That'll give people an idea of who's ideas are best (in the same vein as the coaching videos discussion)

I don't have to do anything but I am willing to discuss the drills suggested by OP. The "blind" drill is a particularly poor suggestion. Any work of this kind would be better done (and cheaper !) in a HEM/PT3/other replayer.

Chicagory let the cat out of the bag when he posted :-

"The number one problem with struggling players is focused volume. They just don't play enough to give themselves much of a chance to be good."

I feel most of the reviews and practices should be based around recent sessions and players should just try to get the experience in by playing a lot.

I agreed with some of your long post, but the bit in bold is complete and utter bull****.

And I speak with vast experience.

These points are valid and important. Basically I agree. Doing anything randomly isn't going to help a whole lot. I should have emphasized more in my OP the bolded parts below.

I agree with you it's not the greatest exercise in the world. A, B, C and G are the core drills imo, along with HEM database research (which most serious players already know how to do). But I've done some playing blind and it does help some in forcing you to actively read hands, but drill A is obviously much better.

You don't HAVE to do anything but I'm just looking for something that might give you some credibility.

Not true. Using things like CardRunners EV to run 50 EV calcs at once, OddsOracle to ask and answer questions, Flopzilla for hand-reading, Equilab/Stove for equities are a huge aid in the process.

On the other hand you could just accept the posts on the merit of the points raised. That's how discussions usually work.

You seem to ge getting away from the concept in your original post* but how about addressing some of the other points raised ?


* Deliberate practice is the key. This is the kind of practice that hurts. It's intensive, focused on making tiny step-by-step improvements in a very narrow area of one's game. It's uncomfortable, where you force yourself to target a specific skill that is just a micro-step beyond your current abilities. You are forced to slow down, make errors, and then correct them. That's how you get better.

For the Tiger Woods' of the world, repetitive breakdown drills are the key. In golf, this translates to hitting 50 putts from exactly 17 feet away on specifically an x-degree incline.

would you be able to go into more specific details on the sort of organisation you are talking about here? thanks in advance
would you be able to go into more specific details on the sort of organisation you are talking about here? thanks in advance
would you be able to go into more specific details on the sort of organisation you are talking about here? thanks in advance
would you be able to go into more specific details on the sort of organisation you are talking about here? thanks in advance
would you be able to go into more specific details on the sort of organisation you are talking about here? thanks in advance
would you be able to go into more specific details on the sort of organisation you are talking about here? thanks in advance
would you be able to go into more specific details on the sort of organisation you are talking about here? thanks in advance
would you be able to go into more specific details on the sort of organisation you are talking about here? thanks in advance

Merit is great but anyone can have an "opinion". The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

Do you honestly believe that HomeyG30 "obsessively maintains 3-4 hours per day" of doing these drills ? It sounds more like he does what Chicagory and I suggested ie he puts in focused volume and "hot houses" by reviewing and discussing plays with players who are successful at the same levels he is playing. Most successful players have got there without doing these drills. A few even pride themselves on not knowing the math(s) !

Agreed. His posts don't have any merit. He just looks like a troll.

Again, you're amazing at misquoting people.

He doesn't say he does 3-4 hours everyday, he says people like tiger woods do and is merely an analogy to suggest people need to practice/work at poker more. And unless you are braindead you would realise that doing just 3-4 hours of these drills everyday would barely benefit you as a player if you were also not spending significant time playing as well (so at least X amount of time spent practising is infact time spent playing).

He also doesn't say "i do exactly this", he actually says "Here are some that I've done" which means he has just given some (and not definitive) examples.

It doesn't matter who tells you this and how many times it is repeated in the thread, you either just fail to grasp it or actively choose not too and nit pick on the smallest and most irrelevant details. I think this thread has become a total shocker if i'm honest, and is a great example of why few people make helpful threads on 2+2.

For many players what is an extremely interesting and informative post has become buried beneath your negativity and subjectivity (which is still in question).

This thread really needs a total clear up. Mods, if i may make a suggestion? Could we delete the last 30 odd posts in this thread and make bullet points of cwoc's complaints about the op? then allow homey to answer and let the thread progress without further interruption from cwoc, myself and any others who are currently arguing about the specifics. I don't like having to post constant rebuttals in a thread, but i feel pretty strongly that while it is good to allow people to question anyone's credentials/posts it is also extremely detrimental to the majority to allow it to continue in the way it is currently progressing with Cwocs posts.

It is in the interest of 2+2 and the majority of it's users that threads like this aren't derailed/trolled/nit picked in this way. And i say this from the perspective of someone not associated with Homey in anyway and who doesn't actual benefit from his post (since i knew this already), I am only thinking of other players.

Thanks for your reply. IMO produce spreadsheets for B, C, and G both for learning and quizzes. Do A or similar from sessions played on HEM/PT3 not just by narrow types of hand.

The way I'd translate the deliberate practice theory to poker is by doing a lot of this hand reading BY SESSION and by watching vids from the best intructors many many times so that every nuance of the instructors' thought processes and play was understood well. You have to pick the best video instructors to do this with. To use the jargon you seem fond of this will improve your "thin-slicing" skills.

Please don't use my words out of context. I was simply describing what the research shows world class performers in a variety of fields consistently do. I never claimed to do this myself, much less to be a world class performer near the level of Galfond, Jungleman, etc. I average about 60 to 90 minutes/day of these drills, on top of other forms of training (watching videos, closely studying how villains play in my current games, solving problems using HEM & Cardrunners EV, etc.).

Please also don't insinuate what I do or don't do to train. You have no idea what I do, you've never talked to me, yet you still try to tell everyone reading this thread what I do for training. Really?

A week ago you were trashing this thread, saying all these drills were crap (except HEM work). Now all of a sudden you're agreeing that drills B, C, G and a tweaked version of A seem really good for training.

My advice would be to start spending as much of your time actually doing this stuff as you do attacking it. This will be the last time I deal with any of this personal nonsense....it's not worth the time, and it's not fair to posters who are sincerely interested in incorporating the drills into their own routines.

I have NEVER trashed any practice but some types practice are more efficient than others. I have been quite consistent in this and have posted the suggestion that you should provide spreadsheets for the equity calcs so that the equity work can be done more efficiently. If organised really well the spreadsheets could also be used as "cheat" sheets in game. That way they could be learnt more efficiently whilst actually playing.

I am astonished that you take my comments re training so personally. The point I am making is that plenty of poker players and performers in other fields succeed without doing 3 to 4 hours of obsessive practice going over and over the same thing blah blah blah or whatever the spiel was. Of course Tiger Woods practises a lot but then so does the golfer who is at two thousand in the rankings and both of them showed an early aptitude for the game. I note that you have confirmed that I was correct and that your own training regime is rather more well directed towards the games you've actually played rather than spending 3-4 hours a day doing these somewhat random-looking drills. I think you've rather missed the point with some of these drills. The core skill in poker is not memorising equities but being able to read opponents and predict how they will act. It's that skill that you need to practise "obsessively".

That's a broad sweeping statement and you haven't mentioned ranges.....and therefore equities. Reading an opponent means putting them on a range and knowing how to react involves a knowledge of your equity against that range, especially against good aggressive opponents.

Don't feed the troll.

And your response is not fair to the posters who want a genuine discussion about these drills. You invited this discussion yourself in your opening post.