Yeah, apparently Stox is now reneging on the refunds. You made any post that could be construed as complimentary of Jason Ho, and you're not eligible.

There's a thread where Ho says he has a rough teaching style (berating). And one of the guys claiming a refund posts how "we wouldn't want it any other way". Meanwhile, people in this thread talking about this berating as part of their stories. I wonder if that guy will be denied a refund now. I hope he got his refund already, or I might have just ruined it for him.

Can you copy/paste it here? Would love to read his description.

Can somebody confirm this? This doesn't sound right at all, if it's true I doubt it'll stay true but I have a feeling something is missing here.

Maybe I am biased, but recently we allowed two threads of the same subject to stay in NVG. The other was in my home forum, HuNL. They were about 4 man husng games.

The thread in NVG turned into a disgrace. Why? Because you had all these ignorant people arguing in a very "I am certain" way over something they really didn't understand. You had people flaming users that knew what they were talking about, then a few posts later getting clarification on the rules. It was gross.

Meanwhile, the HuNL thread went much more smoothly.

And it's not even a credit to the HuNL community. We can be pretty immature and prickly douches quite often. It's just that NVG was a total failure for that thread, and it really sours me on threads where actual discussion needs to take place.

If you want to break news, fine, but there's no way Stox can sift through all the bull**** and get refunds issued out as fast and efficiently if the thread is filled with 10x more silly replies. Not to mention the moderating it takes for a thread like that.

Perhaps you guys can talk to *TT* and Mat about putting a news thread in NVG now that Stox has done all the work they have in this one. I just don't think it's logical nor realistic to start a thread like this in NVG, but if it's just for exposure sake, then perhaps now is the time to put a new thread in NVG (ask Mat and TT first though, I'm just throwing out ideas and views).

This sounds like a much more legitimate and concerning question than "Why isn't this thread in NVG."

Because when a situation like this happens on 2p2 and both sides want the same thing (to resolve the issue) the primary focus is on resolving the issue.

By placing this in NVG, it's more of a "hey everybody, look what happened" but by placing this in Coaching Advice, it's easier to actually fix the problem.

Like I said above, maybe it's time for a news thread, but the actual situation of finding out what happened, why, and how people would be compensated is probably a tad bit more important than notifying every Joe out there of what went on immediately.

Well **** the Macaua Paper, if it were in the NYT it would have 50x the viewers!

I think the bolded part is key. But most of the people bitching that this wasn't in NVG wanted it there from the start. That is clearly a mistake in my own opinion. Putting it there now makes a lot more sense.

Calling it a cover up is silly though. Even if it's only 80% of those 71k views, it's very likely tens of thousands of more poker players saw this thread than read that Macau story.

If you want to argue that it should be put in NVG now that it seems to have been resolved (at least as much so as it will be for awhile), that's a legitimate argument. But calling this a cover up or saying that nobody saw it or that the thread being in this forum was no different than if it were in NVG for the sides to resolve... well I think that's extreme and kind of non sense.

you dont get it, do you. i dont give a **** if macua's newspaper has 1 reader. they put this story on the front page because it is worthy, and that is the extent of their coverage. all the while 2p2, with a dedicated poker news forum, has decided to effectively bury it on the 16th page.

the difference here with the JH scandal is that the issue is more or less resolved. it doesnt matter if the worse of the worst NVGers post non-stop. the thread is done.

there is no reason for the thread to be buried like this.

Whatever happened to the original thread?

Below is my understanding of what happened with the thread. Please anyone correct any parts that are inaccurate.

If I understand it correctly there was originally a thread posted in NVG with some allegations about Jason Ho. That thread was moved to the mod forum. At that point it wasn't clear whether there was any substance to the allegations. The mods were going to discuss the thread and look into the allegations and then decide whether the thread would be reinstated.

In the meantime, GiantBuddha started a second thread asking where the original Jason Ho thread was moved to. That is this thread. I'm not sure if this thread was originally posted in NVG but it currently resides in the coaching forum.

So what happened to the original thread? It was never restored afaik and we never heard what happened to it. In the meantime this thread has become the de-facto Jason Ho scandal thread.

Did the mods make any decision on the original thread? What was it? Is that thread ever going to return?

If it's not going to be restored and this is now the official thread for discussion of the Jason Ho scandal, then I suggest that at least it should be renamed to something more descriptive.

I think part of the reason some people are crying cover-up is that the original thread was removed and not reinstated, and the current thread started as a discussion about that original thread and still has a title that reflects that original meta-discussion and doesn't reflect what a big deal this scandal really is. I suggest mods rename it official Jason Ho scandal discussion thread, and merge back in the posts from the original thread.

Hi Guys.

When we announced that we would be making reimbursement to Jason Ho's private coaching students, we anticipated the total claims to be between $75,000 and $100,000.

In fact, we have received received requests for over $150,000 in reimbursements from almost 50 people. The review of almost all of those submissions is substantially completed and only 1 has been rejected. Notifications to those that submitted the claims are forthcoming.

Thanks

Jim

I'm trying to give you some insight to this.

I agree, there is a legitimate argument to be made to make a thread in NVG now.

But, you don't have credibility for that. You can't argue this because you have been asking for this thread to be moved since BEFORE it was resolved.

I don't intend to be mean, but when you tell me "I don't get it" and that it needs to be moved since the issue is resolved (something that I said was legitimate) it bothers me to see that you don't seem to care about anything other than making noise here.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/10...=#post16425906

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/10...=#post16445690

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/10...=#post16477352

If you truly wanted this to be resolved before it were moved to NVG, you wouldn't of been posting exclusively trying to get this moved as early as 1-28.

You can direct your PMs to the moderators that were handling this issue hands on. When TT has some time, I am sure he will weigh in and address it.

I believe I've given my opinion on it. I hope you can respect that, I didn't make any decisions related to this thread, but I don't see any cover up either. Unless there's a good reason for there not being a thread in NVG, now that it is all resolved I can't imagine anybody objecting. Ask them for yourselves though, since this issue is being resolved, the people that made these decisions may not be reading this thread daily anymore.

Veering OT:

Much as a I have my issues with site management, I suggest maybe we should let this drop. One of the problems with 2+2 is that a volunteer staff is running a for-profit operation. This astounds me to no end, but I assume it explains why so many site policy decisions are so goofy. In a way, this site has many of the problems that plague wikipedia.

As it stands, there seems to be a divide between users. There are hardcore strategy buffs who make this site famous. Then there are the cynical railbirds of BBV, NVG, etc. I think the two groups deserve different sites.

What difference does any of the above make? The timing of one individual's posts seems completely irrelevant.

This thread seems like about 15% coaching advice and 85% News, Views and Gossip.

The main story here has even been reported on the front page of a NEWSpaper...in addition this thread is jam packed with VIEWS and GOSSIP.

How much more NVG do you need?

Ok:

To the NVG haters.... god I can't believe I spent this much time looking into this:

There is a thread about this in NVG http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...oolbox-696934/

The thread died off on its own....

So please stop all the paranoia and hatred in this thread about no NVG thread. There was one for over a week, it died out with about 15% of the views that this thread had and a hell of a lot less replies.

And since then, no new NVG thread was started and locked.

Conspiracy theorists please disperse immediately.

Oh, and a few of you owe me an apology. You start this fuss over something that actually exists and you make up a non existent censorship stance for 2p2. Seriously!

I'm usually a defender of 2p2 users in general, but this was certainly a case of "bitch first, think never" to the fullest extent. None of you even tried to start a thread in NVG? I was assuming people were deleting and locking NVG threads about this. All these posts and back and forth debates and none of you even checked for a Jason Ho thread in NVG? Wtf?

Moderators have a history of siding with coaches against their critics, who are commonly derided as trolls and haters. Dare to mention the PTR stats of a so-called "poker millionaire" and you may find your post swiftly deleted. You can also be banned, as apparently was the case of one veteran poster (10K+ posts) who pressed the issue of a certain Stox coach (not Ho) whom he considered dodgy.

While these people may not be con men, try starting a discussion about the recent <ahem> variance <ahem> suffered by people like Krantz, BalugaWhale, Whitelime, Cole South, Doughnutz, WCGRider, etc. The fanboys will demand your head and the mods will be happy to serve it up.

Note to Mods: before you write that infraction, don't worry, this is the last I will say on this right now. If I lose $5,000, I need coaching. If I lose $500,000, I get to be a coach.

ChicagoRy, you quoted my post and then started blathering on about a "coverup". I never used that word, I believe the expression I used was "buried".

And LOL at you quoting the thread you did as proof. It seems a Leatherass/Dusty thread gets started about once every two weeks in NVG with the pro/con Dusty guys swapping "No You Are" for about 250 posts and then it dies out.

You have "Sponsored Coach" under your name and IMO you also have a vested interest in keeping this as quiet as possible-it puts coaches in a bad light.

I could be wrong here, but it seems to me that Stox/CR is the biggest coaching company around. Stox has agreed to refund over 100K in coaching fees but won't pay back the staking money. So you might be looking at several hundred thousand dollars more. Their decision is debatable, but what isn't is the fact that the largest Coaching Company(teamed with CR) has had this happen to them is NEWS. If a new thread started in NVG was titled "Stox Poker Coach steals 100K+" and the facts were intelligently laid out, it would bury the LeatherAss thread and you know it.

I realize 2+2 is a business, but we think of 2+2 as being an advocate for us, the little guy. Which is why I and many others are disappointeded in the decision to keep this here with its misleading title.

I think you owe us an apology for thinking we are stupid enough to swallow your "See the LeatherAss thread" as proof that people don't care about this. Look forward to your reply.

Dude.

Nobody is stopping anybody from starting an NVG thread about this. To my knowledge nobody has started one in the last week that has been locked.

Are you asking 2p2 to specifically start a thread about this in NVG?

You said there is no thread about this and it's not allowed. I see no proof of that, and was actually surprised. The way everybody was talking, I really thought Stox threads in NVG were being locked because this thread was going on. That is absolutely not the case, I've even double checked with others!

Bronx, if you feel you can start a well laid out thread in NVG to inform people about this, go right ahead. You might want to check with the NVG mods to make sure they do not have any major concerns, but nobody is preventing this from every inquiry I've made and everything I've looked up.

And you can't just blame it on the thread title for the NVG thread not getting a ton of volume. All this thread says is "where did the jason ho thread go" and it has 6x the views and replies as that NVG thread. Yes, NVG is a higher trafficked forum, but you have to remember it also has many more threads as a result.

It's possible that this thread has garnered similar attention to what a thread you propose might garner, just because this forum doesn't have a zillion threads (many new threads get merged into the official request and training site threads, so there isn't as wide of a range of topics you could even create threads about here compared to NVG).

1) If I had a vested interesting in keep this quiet, why would I be replying to this thread at such a high rate when the post/view count has likely moved well beyond peak?

2) If anything, you could say that Stox/CR are competitors of mine. I don't really consider them nor any other training site a direct competitor for various reasons I won't spell out here, but I'm not even giving my opinion on this whole issue. The only thing I am talking about is the "no NVG thread" vs "coaching forum thread" issue. And all of that is purely my opinion from a moderator's perspective.

3) Beyond moderating, I don't really care if every non heads up sng coach turned out to be bad, or looked bad. Beyond moderating, I only care about heads up sng coaches. That's the business I am in, and that's who I really follow up on, research and inquire about anytime I hear anybody on any forum online having a problem with any heads up sng coach.

I work with heads up sng coaches, both that I employ and that I do not employ to help make sure that they are offering fair services to students and that the heads up sng student community is not being ripped off.

But this seems to be your issue, you and the rest of the people arguing with me about a thread. I have no hard opinion on how this was handled, I don't know all the facts from browsing the thread. All I know is this Jason Ho guy seems like a bad person. He reminds me of the Robert Anderson guy that scammed PrimordialAA and others for tens of thousands of dollars (see HuNL thread about that by Primo).

Again, if you feel a thread is warranted in NVG, make one. You can take it up with their moderators if they have a different view, but the key is, out of everybody complaining about no NVG thread, nobody has tried to start one it seems. Nobody on 2p2 has said "no NVG thread" they only moved some threads when this started until they figured out what was going on, and once they did they helped make sure Stox addressed the situation with the students in this very thread. That is all standard 2p2 procedure. Maybe a new thread title in an NVG thread and then merging the leatherass stuff into it is appropriate? I don't really know. But I want to end the debate, as nobody who is arguing with me seems to care enough to actually start the thread that is missing due to 2p2 "burying" this issue.

Again, the only thing I do know is that Jason Ho seems like a scumbag and that the only thing 2p2 seems to have done is make sure Stox works with students towards resolving this to everybody's satisfaction. I think it's a stretch to ask 2p2 to sponsor a thread in NVG, start the thread, if it gets locked or deleted or modified, take it up with the people doing so, but a well laid out thread may very well be left untouched. And in that case, what was the point of arguing in this thread if there wasn't really an issue to begin with?

Dude, why do you keep putting words in my mouth that I haven't spoken?
"You said there is no thread about this and it's not allowed."

Where have I said this?

I don't feel like PM'ing MODS, and recapping all of this in a well thought out post. If the OP wants to more power to him. Or how about a MOD just change this title to something appropriate and XPost this back in NVG?

the most shocking thing about this is that he made over 150k just from coaching in a year. coaching is the biggest scam around

It explains why so many players decided to start coaching once the dead money of the Party Poker boom died out. They were losing money/facing variance, breaking even at the tables and this was enough to pad their losses.

anyone a member of stox forums? supposedly jason ho attempted to have his gf fake a suicide in front of his student? anyone have any info about this?

At least two people confirmed the story. Here it is:

"So my wife and I were in the room chilling Sunday night when we heard a commotion, came out, and there was banging in Jason's room like they were fighting. We banged on the door for them to open, and after a few banging, Jason opens the door with his GF choking him from behind. He then storms out and says "She's a ****ing psycho", with his hand bleeding. He then yells that she's been reading about his stuff (she can barely speak english b/c she's thai) and think it's his fault that he had a gambling problem and lost everyone's money. We then asked him what was happening, and he said that she tried to commit suicide by holding a scissor to her neck, so he started kicking and punching the wall so she'd drop the scissor (very sketchy story). She's then yelling and crying out loud like in the room while Jason's out here working us up...

So we told him to to call the cops and ambulance because we don't want to be stuck here as eye witnesses if she does something insane... and to get a police report down... so when the cops came, rather then telling them to chain her up and take her away for everyone's safety, he starts explaining to them how the website Stoxpoker wrote bad stuff about him, and caused her emotional damage... Then Steve (other student here who can verify everything I'm writing here) asked him in the heat of the moment how she was reading all this stuff, and he stumbled, finally saying she read it on 2+2. We thought there's no way she can read and know the whole story from just 2+2, especially if Jason's banned from Stox.

So then my wife and I, and Steve went into the kitchen to let things calm down, and talk about how all this stuff looks fishy. When things calmed down and we came out, she's over there sitting crying in his arms and he's there comforting her! Then they went off with the police to file a police report or whatever, and get his hand treated b/c he apparently broke a bone punching the wall. He later calls me and ask, "Can you email Stox and get the contact of..." and I cut him off immediately and said I don't want to be involved in this. I'm sure he wanted to get some contacts to threaten them of the 'damages' they've caused.

So now Steve and I think this is all a setup to have us as eye witnesses and a police report so that he can use it to sue stox for defamation of character, and causing emotional and physical harm to his family. Steve booked a ticket to get out the next day to Thailand, and we booked a ticket to go to Vietnam... Not only that, but once we got to the Airport to leave, we found out that we needed a Visa to enter Vietnam. So we had to scramble and found out that we could get a "Visa on Arrival" for $95 and a lot of pleading for the lady on the phone to do it the same day before our flight leaves, which we luckily got emailed to us 2hours before our flight left. We also had to pay an extra $400 for excess weight because I had to pack up my computer that I just got built in Macau.

As you can see, things have been a nightmare for me since I've been to Macau, and like the other students, I did not want to make a bad relationship when I just barely got there, and thought as long as I posted a neutral statement, that it wouldn't cause me any trouble (I never wrote anything positive about Jason). I just think that it's unfair that other students who did the same thing are receiving a refund, but because I was there being involved in the entire mess and trying to make the best of the situation, am now stuck with no refunds and even more expenses."

I don't feel like recapping anything either!

Threads aren't usually x-posted by moderators on any official status. Users x-post and often moderators see the same threads and talk to each other and they keep 1-2 up in the forums that make sense for the topic.

I don't mean to put words in your mouth Bronx, I apologize. I'm just reiterating based on all the posts that were about a similar issue, so sorry if I took another user's words and addressed them to you, my bad on that.

I think I've left enough information here so that if anybody is truly concerned and thinks letting more people know in NVG about this is very important, they know how to do that. And they also know that 2p2 isn't trying to prevent this.

If anybody has any issues or needs a question answered about this, please PM me. I may not be reading this thread as heavily in the next few days, I'll be very busy tomorrow and probably Friday on a few non poker related things.

wow just wow. jason ho, you just keep on givin'!

wow...

arcade machine dancer, then failed korean pop singer (post plastic surgery)
and now poker scam artist. what else is there to say!?

we used to hang with him in picadilly circus, i didnt know him aswell as others, i met him twice. he did film shoots for mtv on dance machines

video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBiEI3wLWLg

nice to see hes doing < well > for himself!

priceless

What are you on about...the Jason Ho scam thread was initally posted in NVG and got locked/deleted, so then someone created this thread in NVG and it got moved here. So that's two threads on this subject that were pulled from NVG. And when people asked for it to be moved back they were told this is where it belongs so that stox can fix things. So I, and I presume everybody else, was under the presumption that this was where the Jason Ho thread was gonna play out and NVG was off limits for it.

And I agree with bronxbomber about the leatherass thread. That was a leatherass hate thread, there's one every other week. I actually read the first few posts of that thread and then just said I'm not gonna bother, it's just your standard leatherass hater and fanboys talking crap back and forward. I only noticed this thread in coaching advice a few days later and found out for the first time about this huge scam. It's very misleading to say 'there was already a thread on this in NVG and it died out quickly' when in fact the focus of that thread was what pr*ck leatherass is, a subject which has been done to death multiple times.

This makes no sense. Stox didn't need or use 2+2 to fix this problem. They did that themselves on their own forums. It makes no sense to use this as a reason for keeping the thread hidden away here when all the fixing was done on the stoxpoker private forums. The role of 2+2 and the other poker forums was to give this story coverage so the claims of the people scammed were taken seriously. If you read back through this thread it is ALL news, views and gossip - the actual fixing took place on stoxpoker.

Why start a new one when the entire story is already in this one. This IS the Jason Ho thread. The reason you gave for keeping it here - "to fix the problem" - makes zero sense imo and even if it had some merit things are long past that point at this stage as Stox have already decided how much is to be paid out and to who. So why can't this thread just be moved to NVG where threads about huge (and small) scams in the online poker world normally go?

So is Jason Ho offering discounts now?