Hey people looking to get coached by Betgo. I don't want to get banned and I don't know if this is inappropriate to post in this forum, but feel free to delete post if it is out of line, I just can't see outright lies and see someone taking advantage of nonprofessional/micro players looking to improve.

I will start by saying Betgo may or may not be a decent poker player, he may or may not be a decent coach. I have my own opinions on the guy and it is irrelevant to the cold hard facts.

Betgo is not particularly good at math and strategic issues.


He doesn't even understand the underlying math and can't even accurately answer a 24bb resteal hand.

He throws around terms like pot odds, ICM, and has 24,000 posts and to a novice player it may seem like he has an idea what he is doing, but I assure you he is completely lost. You should do your research and ask around and find out for yourself before giving this man money.

He does not know how to play the late stages and handle ICM issues.

In a current thread in HSMTT, he has said the following. "Potodds and payout difference counteract ICM" among a bunch of other statements that show he doesn't even understand what ICM is and why it is useful because cEV doesn't equal $EV in the tournament format when payjumps are huge. All chips aren't equal. This clear lack of understanding can be shown a lot in this thread.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/87...llips-1276729/

I can go into more detail explaining how betgo's logic and explanation show that he claims to know how to handle ICM situations/resteals. However, he has no clue what he is talking about. He is a charlatan as far as I'm concerned and should be banned from advertising/taking advantage of unwitting customers on lowstakes on twoplustwo.

Hopefully the moderators can do something about this, and I hope they can feel free to pm me if they need more evidence that he is conning people using big words/large post count into thinking he is an expert at shortstack MTT /math play....when I know part time 10$ players that have a much better grasp of the game than betgo, who don't have the audacity to charge money for their advice.

I feel bad for any people manipulated by this guy. It isn't your fault, you aren't dumb. If I was a microstakes poker player seeing a guy throwing around these words, offering a 'reasonable' rate, I certainly would think 50$ was worth it to improve as a player.

Unfortunately, this guy is probably hurting your game more than he is helping it. The things he claims to be an expert on he doesn't even understand in the most basic sense. Any success you have had is probably due to placebo of coaching helping people and/or variance.

Once again, if a post like this isn't allowed in a coaching thread feel free to delete it. He has paid twoplustwo so I don't know if he basically is untouchable on these forums. I still think twoplustwo owes it to its users to have at least some sort of quality check if its going to allow coaches to advertise. Anyways, any student afraid of speaking up because this big, angry, dumb man has also made physical threats with fighting me IRL for pointing out his fraudulent coaching practice. Feel free to PM me and I will gladly release info without hurting your name. this practice needs to stop. I don't care with higher stakes that actually understand the name taking advantage of semi-successful poker players looking to improve, as I see a lot of that and ridiculous rates.

Taking advantage of poker players at the ground level is just despicable and I could not bite my tongue any longer.

How much of your post is because you care about us students and how much is a personal issue? Sounds like you might know Betgo personally and that there are other motives for your attack.

He doesn't know me personally. He objects to posts of mine in HSMTT and other strategy forums when I have a coaching listing. He has been banned from 2+2 before under other names.

I know him personally not at all. He has attacked me personally quite often in HSMTT, but he posts often in HSMTT. It is a forum of which I'm well recognized as being one of the best contributors and betgo is one of the worst.

There are no motives whatsoever other than me wanting to clean up HSMTT, and protect this guy who bothers me from scamming future people. At the very least, people should be educated that the guy they are recieving coaching from isn't close to an expert and says things that clearly show beyond any reasonable doubt that he lacks basic fundamental understanding of the concepts he claims to be expert enough to coach people for 50$/hour for. I don't blame him. Black Friday hurt a lot of people, and he probably made 20$/hour online or maybe even more playing super soft games with recreational players. That doesn't mean he has the right to steal from players looking to improve by conning them into thinking he is an expert.

I try to keep personal attacks to a minimum. I've never met him. I have no idea who he is like. I just know he isn't qualified to coach the things he is saying he can coach. I know this because I am a winner in HSMTTS live and online for many years, a coach myself, and an ICM /shortstack /math expert. I have to point this out.

Betgo, it doesn't look good for you that your defense to my claims is discrediting my opinion saying I'm banned from twoplustwo before. (I just had an account banned because it was compromised because I sold it and that isn't allowed) How do you not understand this? You are extremely dense.

I quoted you claiming you understand math and shortstack scenarios and ICM. This is directly proved wrong by your posts in the thread I linked to. I can go into detail with a mod explaining the math and huge flaws in your reasoning. This all would show that you aren't worthy of coaching anyone and that your claims ITT about your skills are fraudulent. You can call this libelous all you want but the only libel are your claims. They are directly conflicting with your analysis in the thread.

You still don't understand ICM and refuse to admit that your statement, 'potodds and payout difference counteract ICM' shows you lack the fundamental understanding of what ICM is. You are leading your students terribly wrong and I will not stand to watch you steal 50$/hour from people that do not know any better. I can explain this all to any mod and hope the mods do PM me if they don't understand the ICM/nonsense you post.

For transparency, I should point out that this account was a bit of a joke account.

I've used many various accounts since the one with my name 'stealthmunk' was lost because I sold it which unbeknownst to me was against twoplustwo rules.

I had many great posts on that and have been thanked many times in live tourneys for my strategy advice on that, 'the bear jew', 'steve haris' too are mine that I've just gotten tired of there names and like mixing it up.

This forum is how I spend almost all my free time and I have quite a passion for poker and this forum and it makes me sad to see people like betgo taking advantage of it. I post better free advice in HSMTT for anyone looking to improve as a player everyday for free and I am infinitely more qualified than him and do it because I enjoy helping people discussing poker and for my own ego obviously . Betgo just is taking advantage of players that don't know any better and his high post count and misrepresenting himself as an expert whereas if you follow HSMTT at all/can understand some of the nonsense he posts, it would be obvious to anyone that understands MTTs that he is the farthest thing from an expert at the things he claims to be an expert in.

He will go on dumb rants saying this is libelous and whatnot, blah blah blah. I don't think he even knows what libel means. Nothing I said could even possibly be interpreted as a lie seeing as your skill level is completely objectionable. Thats the problem with coaching. I can show the huge flaws in your understanding of ICM/mtts/resteals and how they directly go against your claims of expertise in shortstack situations. Those are facts. However, as a whole your ability to coach is not really able to be quantified. I can just hope I make the potential people that might get coached by you aware of what they are getting themself into. Obviously you are going to be biased as most poker players think they are a lot better than they are, and also you have financial incentive to misrepresent and overrepresent your skills. However, I think you take it way too far. To claim you know resteals/ICM yet to say something as shockingly dumb as 'Payout differences and pot odds counteract ICM' just means that you should not be able to coach, and I hope twoplustwo protects its users that see 24k posts and big words and 50$/hour and get suckered into your pretty smart business plan. You would not be able to fool anyone with any remote poker skill into thinking you could help them, so you don't bother you refer them to others. Also, you could not turn anyone into a profitable player, as you are most likely not a profitable player yourself currently. (I don't care whatever results you pull up) So you are basically just leeching off of people who are genuinely trying to improve there game but probably work hard for there money and its disgusting to me. I honestly don't know how you sleep at night.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/87...55/index4.html

This thread helps me make up my mind. Won't be contributing any further to the derailment of this thread.

I was 'levelling' for a lot of that thread. I created a persona 'borgatagrinder85' because I was bored/it was a joke. Everyone knew it was me. Similar to betgo's april fools joke. My advice about the thread and how to play Ace King is very good though, some of the other stuff is just funny though.

You are entitled to your opinion though, just like I am and betgo is Free Speech! We aren't in China, betgo! Betgo is calling a lawyer though on me I'm so scared!

Its clear you are friends with betgo/he is asking you to post on his behalf/maybe you are even betgo! I don't know! I don't care about convincing people he's already conned, they are a lost cause. As long as I can share my opinion and prevent more people from being hustled by this guy by showing fact that he is not good at calculating resteals or understanding ICM or most any of the stuff he claims to be an expert about, then I will have done a good job.

.........

Islander is a student of mine. Wasn't prompted to post of course.

Think the problem is I used to play HSMTT, but don't play it much now. I have been posting in HSMTT for 6 years and am in the habit. The forum has gotten really dead, so not many people post. It also says "see my coaching thread." So that seemed to set BorgataGrinder AKA Stealthmunk off.

I've moved this discussion out of Betgo's listing until we can figure out what is going on here.

If anyone can clue me in on this, particularly someone other than the coaching and borgata guy, please do.

His last live cash was in 2009. And he hasn't relocated to play online since black friday. He's obviously clueless and makes his living preying on the rookie poker players. It makes me sick and I really think 2p2 should take away his 'see my coaching listing' advertisement at the very least.

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=94288

Then he wouldn't feel compelled to leave awful strategy advice in some of my favorite strategy forums such as HSMTT.

These posts from another thread. The Borgata guy is a total bully and troll. As the other poster said, I provide excellent value. I have a complete no BS approach.

It is totally innapropriate for him to engage in these baseless attacks aiming to provoke me and damage my business.

The way I read that he's right and you are wrong. The bigger the payout jumps the closer you get to chip EV and vice versa. The two extremes are winner takes all (cEV) and the bubble of a satellite with lots of seats (massive ICM effect).

You don't coach people, right? If not, its fine for you to be naive I'll gladly explain to you via skype or something why this post is off base. Or you can feel free to read my posts in HSMTT.

Payout differences can not 'counteract' ICM. Payout differences ARE ICM. Once we plug in the $ value of our stack and find what % equity we need to call, all that is left to analyze is various factors that change the ICM$ value of our stack , (Skill edge , table position, structure) all of which I think mean gus needs much more than 56.6 % to call and TT is bad, and then we need to figure out our opponents range.

You are right that if its winner take all cEV=$EV and if its a sattelite there is a massive difference. But that doesn't mean payout differences 'counteract' ICM #s I posted. Thats just dumb, and shows he doesn't understand ICM. The #s I posted were the actual exact definition of how much the payout differences effected the cEV vs $EV. And then the calculations/% i did translated the cEV to $EV.

I promise you I'm an expert in this field. I have done it countless times. Betgo obviously is a fraud, and not an expert, and I don't even think if put to the test he could do an ICM analysis of a resteal spot at a FT if I gave him the proper tools. I would love to test him, in a closed environment, before he has the time to possibly learn. Because right now, he just doesn't get it, yet is charging people 50$/hr and its one of the fields he says he's an expert in.

I have had coaching from you (for the 18 mans) and it was obvious that you were one of the best regs at those games. I found you to be very professional, excellent value and it helped my game a lot. The example Borgata quotes shows that he has misunderstood what was meant. If you could achieve the results you got without having a solid grasp of ICM then you'd be a genius poker player ! Borgata quoted that you posted

"Potodds and payout difference counteract ICM"

I understand exactly what that means. The jump in payout means there isn't much ICM in that spot and the pot odds overcomes it. I dunno whether that made the play you recommended correct as I haven't seen the hand history but the meaning of those words is quite clear to me.

Cwocwoc,

You don't understand what it means as it is a foolish statement.

Haha, you have a fundamental misunderstanding.

'The jump in payout means there isn't much ICM in that spot'

What the hell does that even mean? There isn't an 'amount' of ICM in a given spot. ICM is just a method to analyze the chips ACTUAL value in a touranment situation where cEV doesn't equal $EV. What you said is like saying when asked to solve a word problem.

'There isn't much algebra in that spot'

You are an idiot just like betgo, sorry. I'm sorry if he led you the wrong way, but fact is you are very wrong here. I'm trying to help out but what can I say. Ignorance is bliss?

There is no possible way for potodds and payout difference to counteract ICM. ICM isn't like something lingering in a hand. It is a 'model' 'Independent Chip Model' . In a tournament where payouts are different, not winner take all, and stacks vary greatly, cEV doesn't = $EV.

So you can't play poker as if winning all the chips is the optimal way always. Because that simply isn't the case, and a huge flaw in your game. Not all chips have the same value. To be more specific, the chips that Gus Hansen would gain going from 2million -4million are worth a lot less in $value than the chips he'd lose going from 2million - zero. The Hand history is here.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/87...llips-1276729/

I'm sorry if I come off as a bit harsh! I think you deserve your lessons refunded from betgo as he is a charlatan and a fraud giving students terrible advice and its disgusting that you paid for a way to learn about MTTs and ICM and in turn have the same gross misunderstandings about it as betgo has himself.

I'll give you a free hand history review if you want to pm me it as a service to community to undo the damage betgo has done. Sorry, but there is no possible way that 'Potodds and payout difference can counteract ICM'

Payout difference is just part of the variables we change to accurately model exactly how much we should adjust our play because of cEV not = $EV. Potodds aren't a part of it either, but thats a little more complicated to explain. I did the math out for the potodds effect in the ICM model. I made the value of our stack if we folded, the value our stack if we called and won and the value of our stack if we called and lost. The only variable that is up for discussion and analysis now is our opponents range. This would change the %s we call and win/call and lose. So everything in that statement is a sham/false and shows he has no understanding of the math I did to accurately analyze the 24bb resteal spot.

Its math that should be second nature to any winning MTTsng/sng player that understands ICM. I've done this same problem hundreds of times probably thousands. Betgo clearly hasn't done it once. This is why he is a fraud.

Of course there is. It's the difference between cEV and $EV




Of course it can. The difference between cEV and $EV might be 50 chips and 50 chips might be the difference offered in pot odds.

I have not suggested otherwise. It would be reflected (slightly imperfectly) in the $EV ICM calc.

It all depends on villain's range obv. I agree with betgo that it's prob a call vs a very aggro opponent three-handed. It's an easy Nash call for what that's worth.

You have no idea what you are talking about cwocwoc.

You are throwing around terms and have no idea what they mean. You are exactly like betgo.

'Its an easy Nash call?' In that you plugged the shove into a nash calculator? Or the reshove? And it came out? Are you talking about a nash calculator showing the unexploitable resteal ranges? I don't know of one that exists online, and do my resteal calculations/ranges out more manually, I could be wrong though.

Hahahahahha. That was some good comedy. I have done my best to explain everything as thoroughly and specific as possible. I will explain further in Skype if you want some free coaching because I feel bad that betgo has made you into the blubbering idiot you appear to be on the forums right now. Its not your fault though, you don't know any better. You are his creation.

I did the ICM calculation in the thread if you read the thread. I posted the numbers. I talked about the necessary range. AFTER DOING THE ICM CALCULATION, betgo said those numbers/range can be affected by the payout differences/potodds. LOL. I think you maybe smarter than him but I'm not sure. Maybe you didn't read the thread.

It obviously depends on villains range. As I posted ITT. If villain is shoving 14%-15% it makes calling=to folding in terms of ICM. Betgo thinks those numbers can be affected or 'counteracted' by payout differences / pot odds. They can't. Those numbers are calculated incorporating the potodds and payout differences!

This high stakes player thinks he is a better player than I am and maybe he is. However, he is close to broke and I think resents long time winning grinders like myself.

He dislikes my posts in HSMTT and maybe I shouldn't have posted there. I used to play in some of those tournament and had great results. Whether or not I am a good poster in a high stakes thread does not effect my ability to coach at the rates I charge.

His is the only negative comment in my coaching thread. I guess it has been moved here. I have many great testimonials from actual students who I helped.

He has absolutely no business trolling and trying to damage my reputation like this. He even quoted out of context when I responded when a student said he wanted to post in my coaching thread to make it look like I was soliciting a favorable review. He went to that length to try to damage my reputation.

I may not be a top high stakes player, but I crush the games I play. I have a lot to offer low to mid stakes students. My rates or low. I do not push packages are offer special deals. My business practices are extremely honest. As others have said, this is one of the best coaching values around.

It is totally outragious that 2+2 allows him to continue to troll like this and spread his false and libelous accusations. It is not right that I should be paying for a coaching listing and have this kind of nonsense posted. I know 2+2 will do its job and ban this troll and remove this thread.

There was not one false or libelous accusation made, betgo.

I hope twoplustwo does its job and removes you coaching listing and protects you from scamming more unsuspecting up and coming micro players.

I don't resent longtime winning grinders at all! I love them. I think that they work hard and its awesome. All respect in world to guys that kill it and grind day in day out, especially online. You haven't had a result I could measure since 2009. You aren't a winning grinder. You are a losing poker player, milking your success in pre black friday games into swindling naive poker players into overpaying for your useless advice. It would be fine too to offer your advice as long as you didn't lie about your expertise in certain areas, such as ICM and resteal calculations. However, because you lied, you are by definition a FRAUD. And until you make a statement to apologize or own up to it, you just dig yourself a deeper hole, and I too, hope twoplustwo does the right thing and ban you from advertising coaching anymore.

How come you don't now how to work out Nash reshoves (25% here btw) ?

Your arithmetic is correct. I think villain will be shoving this range or wider you don't. That's all.

On another point of logic do you think that is was possible to crush the $16/18 man games in 2011 without knowing ICM well ? I don't.

I guess I've just never heard the term Nash reshoves before? Maybe I'm just an idiot! I don't know! I'm not a coach though advertising on 2p2 I don't know how you could reach / talk about an equilibrium/analyze it as an equilbrium when we know what our hand is TT, but we don't know the range we are opening. That would be necessary to recognize what reshove range would be at equilibrium. I assume you are just using a term or something, or we are slightly misunderstanding eachother, anyways.

I think its very possible to crush the $16's 18s in 2011 without knowing ICM well.

I think betgo might be a great player, I know nothing about his game. I have my doubts, and my beliefs on his skill, but they are irrelevant.

All I know is the FACT that betgo misrepresented himself in his coaching ad as an expert in areas he is not an expert in. This is fact.

Obv there is a Nash opening range for hero and a Nash shoving range for villan and a Nash call/reshove range for hero.

All other things being equal betgo had the best understanding of ICM of anyone who was playing the $16/18s in 2010-11 as he achieved a much higher ROI than anyone else ,18% iirc, but that doesn't seem to mean anything to you.

There is no such thing as a 'Nash opening range' at least that has been solved et for villain.

You are a ****ing moron. Stop posting nonsense.

If there was an exact range that you knew was unexploitable to r/c r/f or shove then there wouldn't be any sng players, all sng players would be Nash Calculators. God, how dumb can you be? You are making up numbers and playing them off as fact. You are worse than betgo.