(moved) coaching listing discussion - Page 2 - Poker Coaches

Jah Onion · 06-30-2012, 01:05 AM

If you're bothered by my back to back posting, install auto-merge consecutive posts on the forum

it's a good feature

Yngwie Malmsteen · 06-30-2012, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pontylad

playing session so can't reply in full at the moment. I have no problem with oldschool having a coaching thread (I even said that in his previous thread). What he shouldn't be allowed to do is open a clean new thread where all the information revealed about his dubious claims/multi accounting and all round general irrational behaviour is not even on show for students to see. It's criminal to allow that to be swept under the carpet. So i think people have an absolute right to view this new thread in disbelief (at oldschool as well as 2+2 admins). 2+2 used to be about protecting/looking out for interests of new players, this goes totally against it.

And got to say i hate the video idea, for as has been stated already by vini, it has nothing to do with the issue here.

This really, just restore the old thread and people will have the full picture.

oNste · 06-30-2012, 07:53 AM

Anger. ITT.

pontylad · 06-30-2012, 08:45 PM

I think you would had to have seen what went on in the last thread oNste, to understand why there is such a strong response to this new one being created in this way. As i keep repeating oldschool should definitely be allowed to have a coaching thread, and despite his loljesus merge account, that doesn't mean that he can't provide a service for micro players in some way. However, as i conversed with CR, If he wants to advertise again it should 100% be done through his old thread.

2+2 should not (whether willingly or as a by product) facilitate with covering up a coaches history. Potential students should be allowed to view what went on in the previous thread with regards to jeremy's claims, what was/wasn't proved about them, his views on multiaccounting and also how he handled himself when being asked difficult but relevant questions about his screen names and results (which included threatening to fight someone, a general sense of evasiveness and also some posts that were so irrational that any potential student should 100% see as it is probably a good judge of his character). These are all very intrinsic pieces of information that a student should consider when hiring a coach and as such should not be removed from view.

Lets take this example to the extreme... say breathweapon came back, paid back all the money he stole and then wanted to set up a new coaching thread with the old one ignored, would it be allowed? of course not. I am not comparing oldschool to breathweapon btw, i am just showing an extreme example and asking 2+2 where do they draw the line on these things?

The example i gave to CR was this, Thinkitthrough in the coaching forums got asked repeatedly about his results/screen names/competence to coach. should 2+2 remove all those questions from his thread and his answers? Am sure any coach would love the difficult questions being removed but answering them is part and parcel of advertising on a forum like this. As is Thinkitthrough handled the difficult questions in a very dignified and professional way which allows him to stand out from other coaches that answer these questions poorly and again as such should remain in all threads.

My last point, is that if the old thread is deemed relevant by 2+2 then it should not just be a case of linking it to oldschools new thread. The threads should be merged since it would be too easy for the link to get buried and new/naive people not to read it or give it the proper consideration.

**ChicagoRy** · 07-01-2012, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMD

RE: Affiliating,

I agree with you that the last thing we need is a craigslist style thread where affiliates are spamming the hell out of the forum. And yes some of the larger sites to offer under the table deals but these deals are very rarely tailor made to your requirements and they are becoming rarer with each passing month.

Why not bring back the rb request form where we can post something like,

"Need deal at *Pokersite* pm me with offers."

We can also have a negative feedback thread like we do in the staking forum where if an affiliate gets out of line we can easily find out that information easily and avoid them. We can also have a positive feedback thread where people say yeah dealing with *affiliate" is great, pays on time, no problems etc.

Recently I tried to get a deal on a network. Luckily I know a few different affiliates already so I messaged them all, they all asked what I played, volume etc, and then made me an offer. Every one of those offers were different from each other and I just played them off each other until I got the best offer from all of them.

The current rb request form will never allow you to do that so people who don't have the same number of contacts I do would be losing a lot of money. Why should users not have access to affiliates like Danny or Disco just because they don't know them when they will likely be able to offer anything better than the sites in the form?

People with more contacts always get better deals in poker. If you know a lot of coaches you probably know first if a coach is willing to give a discount. If you know more video makers as a training site, you'll probably get better deals for your money.

That said, you do bring up a good point, and I think I acknowledged it a bit in my last post, that being that perhaps there is some room on 2p2 for small affiliates to buy in to the system to become advertisers. You're right, currently you can only advertise in a bigger way as an affiliate (as far as I know and besides the employees on 2p2 I think I'm pretty aware of options as anyone).

This is definitely a Bobo Fett/Mat issue though, affiliate stuff has nothing to do with the coaching forum. But I think you raise a good point in that regard.

One last thing though, guys like Disco or Danny are businesses, just smaller businesses. They're making money. It's kind of a Merge Network issue if they are giving their buddies under the table deals, deals that the larger sites cannot offer people. Honestly, if a big site could offer these deals via PM I'm sure they would, as they are even more capable than a single coach in being able to operate with small margins (because they have a higher volume of players). Small coaches won't stick around if the money gets too small, whereas larger affiliates can handle 2-5% margins if they need to. I'm also an advocate of open affiliate markets, I think it's silly that sites get upset if an affiliate gives their share of money to a player, after all the player will put more of that back onto the site than the affiliate. Fairness isn't even relevant when you look at the bigger picture, and that's even if you can define fairness (but any way anybody defines it, there are much larger "unfair" things happening all the time with affiliates and poker rooms and players).

But until the system is changed, there are rules, businesses can't advertise rakeback deals without advertising. If these guys have such good deals, they can buy the right to advertise and then users will get access to better deals. Part of the reason they don't do that is because they would likely get shut down quickly if they were advertising under the table deals on certain networks that don't expressly allow those deals. I'm fairly certain if a PokerStrategy or RTR was offering people 60% rb on the 2p2 form on Merge they would quickly get reigned in. So that one is kind of a product of the system that Merge has kind of setup, less so any 2p2 unfairness or big guys being greedy. You still do have some good points though.

There has to be a better method than forcing all users to sites like Pokerstrategy who won't even entertain the thought of rb deals and are infact very much against them.

RE: Coaching

Yeah maybe it was my fault and I didn't make it clear to Mat what I was trying to find out.

I didn't expect to be allowed to post in this forum but was hoping to be directed to somewhere that I could offer some free coaching without breaking any rules. Maybe it's okay in the strategy forums I dunno. As you say the site is huge.

I honestly didn't expect a simple no you can't do that but you can pm people who post in here answer from Mat though.

Without meaning to be arrogant $150 isn't a lot of money but what's the point in me paying it, then charging people $20 or $30 per hour if I don't even know if I am any good at it? I have never done it before and although my results are okay I might be really crap at coaching. I would feel like I was conning people.

Well, you can just PM people looking for coaching in the coaching request thread in this forum. If you're PMing them offering free coaching I'm pretty sure you'll get some business and references.

Also, you can put your name in the study group thread and say "Looking to really structure my game better by doing sessions with other users, I want to treat it as a more constructive, coaching-type situation. PM me if you're a hard working player that wants to learn together." Then you can basically do some sessions with these players in a study group type format and you'll probably have some good references.

Again, would it be easier and would more flow be captured if the system were setup in a more much obvious way? Sure. But poker would be dead if it were a simpler game (like checkers) too. You have to be a bit creative and adapt to the system to take full advantage, but as someone who feels more comfortable in that environment, I actually prefer it.

All that said, I'd get behind some sort of $50 fee to make a single post in a free coaching thread (one post a month offering free coaching). The downside is that we'd have to find a way to sort of police it so that affiliates don't start spamming "free" coaching that isn't really free (rb signup required), but I'd still support that idea, and I was one of the few suggesting a multi tiered pricing structure when the coaching forum went pay.

In any case there are always good ideas, like in the real world, but the key is finding people with time and passion to execute these ideas. The latter is in need.

What I want to do is a win win for everyone. I find out if I like coaching and users give me feedback if I'm any good and the users are guaranteed to improve at least some part of their game during an hour with me.

Obviously I agree that if you are going to advertise your services in a listing that you are making money from then it's only right that 2p2 get a slice of the pie.

Back to the main point from the other thread......as a community we should never allow people to mislead others on here especially when they are asking people to pay a fee. Examples of this would include:

Giving out false information in the way of screenames, results etc.

I mean if anyone really wanted to setup a scam it would be so easy to do:

* Build up your reputation on here for 6months or so
* Create a coaching thread and pay $150 for it
* Get a bunch of fake people to say how good your coaching is
* Block book a bunch of people and then take their money and disappear

People did this when the listings were free, several people in fact.

I'm not saying Newschool would ever do that but to me it highlights the need for criteria to be met for anyone advertising a coaching listing, not just a $150 fee.

We allow users to police the forum themselves, mainly because there really aren't enough mods to do detective work on every thread. So that's why users have all these hateful comments in their threads (and the more valid and less hateful the more likely it is to stay obviously). I mean it's not like I'm deleting remarks about OldSchool's advertising or truthfullness, there are several negative remarks in his current thread, and his previous one was littered with them. How could he get away with a scam in a realistic way, without a user enabling him (the last part is very key, people aren't cows, they're people, if you hand someone $500 and don't read or at least skim a 50, or even 200 post feedback thread, then the problem is the person handing their money away too easily, not the system.

What should be the criteria? Well that's open for debate but it should include simple like:

* post all screenames (we have to do it in the transfer and staking thread so I think it should be very relevant here)
* post recent results
* don't hide the filters that you are using in hem to make your results look better than they are

Maybe it's just myself that feels the hierarchy of 2p2 has detached itself from the community I dunno but to me it looks like they are only interested in making as much money as possible these days.

I disagree with this entirely, but obviously 2p2 is looking to make money. What I don't see is them making money at the expense of users. Every negative issue is theoretical in here. In fact, the coaches that did scam users had good stats. Jason Ho had good stats I think. Breatheweapon made up some stats, eventually users saw some inconsistencies and the jig was up.

But I mean, if you want to volunteer time and you haven't been involved in any major issues on 2p2, volunteer to moderate. You don't even need to become a mod to help though, just point out any major issues in any of the coaching threads if you want the community to be safer.

2p2 definitely takes a personal responsibility approach, as I said before, what type of person is going to hand someone $100s of dollars without at least reading a coaching thread? It's absurd to think that we need to protect people that are so willing to hand out money that they won't even read the replies in a coaching thread (that's more in references to the last oldschool thread where several people felt the dozens of negative remarks would be "buried." I don't know about you guys, but when I spend money on poker forums, I read all the posts, at least skim all the posts, and if I see something negative I take a closer look.

Anyways, I still think you do bring up some valid points, and judging by some others that say similar things as you and other negative sentiment on the forums, there definitely is some sort of a communication gap. I don't think it's serious, as often it involves stuff like perm ban vs temp banning terrible troll users, but it's still worth looking at how decisions and the system as a whole is communicated and explained to users.

My replies bolded.

**ChicagoRy** · 07-01-2012, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jah Onion

Oh is it? Did anyone ask the community whether or not to delete his old coaching thread?

Nobody asked me either and I'm part of the community too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jah Onion

If you're bothered by my back to back posting, install auto-merge consecutive posts on the forum

it's a good feature

You're never a bother.

Ok, sometimes, but not as often as you'd think

---

Anyways, this OldSchool situation will be resolved. There was some disconnect on his coming back I think and the old thread and all the details and that should be resolved soon.

Handling a lot of stuff via PM, and Forum Cop is doing a lot of work as well, so I'd expect to see something more to everybody's liking soon; the ironing out the advertised stuff and labels of stats, the old thread issue and OldSchool has said he'll make a current free strategy video so prospective students and critical coaches can have some actual facts of his analysis, not just he said/she said, "these stats mean x bc that's my criteria" stuff that goes back and forth.

The end result is hopefully the coaching forum is back to its quiet self, with no issues or drama.

Jah Onion · 07-01-2012, 03:29 AM

Quote:

However, as i conversed with CR, If he wants to advertise again it should 100% be done through his old thread.

My last point, is that if the old thread is deemed relevant by 2+2 then it should not just be a case of linking it to oldschools new thread. The threads should be merged since it would be too easy for the link to get buried and new/naive people not to read it or give it the proper consideration.

100% agree with this

Quote:

Nobody asked me either and I'm part of the community too!

Exactly

davidpaul · 07-02-2012, 04:58 AM

if a coach is potentially offering value not proportional to the price he is charging, as long as people can see what he had been doing these past years?
i can say no one would have any questions about that..

newschool2 · 07-09-2012, 04:30 AM

As Sauce and plenty of logical non haters have said, the coaching hate is misplaced and stupid.

Forcing businesses to play by your rules is an absurd notion. You are consumers, well most of you in this conversation aren't even consumers. I find your whole campaign silly, childish, and small. Despite the fact that you follow around fish all day at the tables, you tear coaches like myself down under the cover story of "community service". Yeah, you guys who constantly make fun of posters in the forum, troll people, constantly stroking your own egos, are soooooo community oriented. Give me a ****ing break!

Everyone can see why you do this, its not because you care about new member of the community. You'd be fine with any of my clients who are new to poker playing HU vs you, rite???? But, you would hate for that money to go to some coaching. Even though paying for coaching is a way better investment than playing you HU, Im the bad guy and I must be stopped! our community is in trouble blah blah blah!!!!!!.........

Honestly I think you target me because I am a decent coach and I turn fish into players who you cannot exploit very well, or I teach them that they are not good enough to play the stakes they do, and they move down. Guys like me cut into your bottom line and I understand that. You understand that. I also make money, and I dont have to play, that sparks up jeleous feelings.

I've been following posts from people in this "conversation" some of you arent winning any more, and are pissed off about it. Some lost money from FTP, and are pissed off about it. Instead of doing something productive with that anger......Better idea: find an easy target and spend some time on something you can actually impact. Hey why not those coaches! pfffft

I just got real and told some truths, I am so busy lying about my results, its nice to tell the truth everyone once in a while.

Neways, heres my serious thoughts on the "situation"

1. Posting your recent results while is helpful, should be completely up to the coach. Some coaches don't like to play very much, they find poker boring to play but fun to teach. I personaly dont like to play more than 3 hours a day if at all, I have add and I lose focus and get bored with sitting in a chair. Of course most of you cynics are probably rite, I HAAAAVE to be a losing player in order to coach. NO other explanation of why I do it. Maybe I like to watch people learn? Maybe I am the only one who is actually helping the community between all of us. But naw, nm I'm a scumbag who takes advantage of people and lies about EVERYTHING.

2. Posters are allowed to delete their posts, there is no difference for deleting a thread. I was very proud of my thread, until some trolls invaded it and caught me at a stressful point in my life. Of course I should have a second chance and be able to start a new thread. Coaching thread is a relatively new concept. As such, how things "should be" is going to be different based on your opinion and stake in the situation.

My opinion of what a coaching thread "is": As someone who has been a member of the coaching forum for years, I'll throw my hat in the ring and say a thread is a privalege for the coach. He pays for it, foremost it is an investment he makes. In the hierarchy of what a coaching thread is, FIRST AND FOREMOST it is an investment for the coach. If he didnt make the decision to pay for it, it doesnt exist. The coach or franchise is the creator of said thread. 2nd the students, they have a stake in the situation, they paid for coaching and they have some real insight into the coach, give them the power to make an impact (positive or negative) in the thread. 3rd potential student, potentional students (not trolls) should be able to ask questions that will help them make a decision about how to spend their money. 4th and finally the rest of the community (including trolls who want to make trouble) the needs and wants of this element of twoplustwo should be weighted in the lowest. Their roll in this whole dynamic is worth something, but not much.

Ultimately, a coaching thread should not be a party thread where anyone can post whatever they want. When a coach puts down money for a thread, he should be able to delete it, as in many ways its his property, and much more his property than that of the community. In US law, persons have the right to posess and destroy their own property including intellectual property.

I know some of our bright minded posters like to make unequivocal analogies, so here is mine..... If ran an add for my business on a billboard and someone paints the word "*******" on my billboard, I'm probably gonna make a new one, or have the thing cleaned up. It would be reasonable.

Trolls disguising themselves as saviors of community are, at best, fooling themselves. They have nothing better to do, and they think tearing people down is funny. I find that sad.

If any of my students had something bad to say, I would listen, but that never happend. Go figure.

SWAG

Tumaterminator · 07-09-2012, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidpaul

if a coach is potentially offering value not proportional to the price he is charging, as long as people can see what he had been doing these past years?
i can say no one would have any questions about that..

In a vacuum, the value of any business transaction, specifically those of service, would be publicly weighed by all costumers who are perfectly unbiased, and honest people who have intensive knowledge on the marketplace. This would result in the best products being sold for the cheapest without degrading the industry.

In reality, and for various reasons, random assortments of people flock to anonymous message boards to weigh-in on the quality of a good. Even with "established" people leading discussions, it's generally understood that the information is extremely volatile in terms of relevancy. The people who don't understand this rule are open for predation. Those that do, and are still interested in discussing the topic, seek out more/credible/trustworthy sources. Sometimes this leads to people making better decisions, sometimes not. This applies far beyond poker and message boards.

Trying to quantify the value of oldschool's coaching is laughable, especially in this setting. Everyone who has an opinion should share it, but to assign a "yes" or "no" to the product based on overwhelming criticism is beyond fallible without a burden of proof.

When I mentioned degrading industry I was also speaking of 2p2 (the company, not the AWWWWWW WE ARE 2p2<3<3<3). Their business is expanding at the cost of their credibility in SOME capacity. This is for them to worry about. I don't imagine Craig from craigslist gives much of a **** about the false information posted on his website. Telling 2p2 how to run their business is also laughable, especially when the element of law is not at hand.

---

It's still really good that people are bombing away about qualitative stuff [morals, personal traits] because these are FAR more indicative of whether or not someone will be relatively honest and fair with their business.

Jah Onion · 07-09-2012, 07:11 AM

Quote:

. Posters are allowed to delete their posts, there is no difference for deleting a thread

Only if it's within the grace period for editing a thread

Quote:

Honestly I think you target me because I am a decent coach and I turn fish into players who you cannot exploit very well, or I teach them that they are not good enough to play the stakes they do, and they move down. Guys like me cut into your bottom line and I understand that. You understand that. I also make money, and I dont have to play, that sparks up jeleous feelings.

Naw man, we target you because you're a **** coach who in the past lied about his results and is now, for some reason, being given a clean slate after all the bull**** you pulled. The clean slate is not the problem, the problem is your potential students cannot get any insight into the type of person/coach you are by reading the previous thread.

If you think about it, we're actually doing ourselves a disservice because you actually are a **** coach, so it would stand to reason that selfish poker players would want you to keep providing your **** coaching services so that none of your students will actually improve (the ones playing >25NL anyway), which they prob would have had they gone to a better coach.

Quote:

I was very proud of my thread, until some trolls invaded it and caught me at a stressful point in my life.

I mean this says it all.

a) if we were trolls invading your thread, why did ChicagoRy and/or forum cop not delete all the "trollish" posts. AFAIK they deleted a couple of actual troll posts, but left most of the rest there. Are you saying they are bad mods and they made incorrect decisions here?

b) You were PROUD of your thread? If you were so proud of it, and we were trolls, why didn't you ask ChicagoRy to delete all the troll posts and let your thread keep going? Maybe because those troll posts weren't troll posts and they were exposing you for the liar and scum you actually are?

Quote:

Everyone can see why you do this, its not because you care about new member of the community. You'd be fine with any of my clients who are new to poker playing HU vs you, rite???? But, you would hate for that money to go to some coaching. Even though paying for coaching is a way better investment than playing you HU, Im the bad guy and I must be stopped! our community is in trouble blah blah blah!!!!!!.........

Lol so why don't we actually pick on the GOOD coaches then? Oh, that's right, because the "good" coaches don't lie about their results, they don't hide them, they don't attack other coaches and other posters in order to deflect the **** they're getting over their shady practices, and because they don't then have their thread deleted in order to bury everything then start a new thread where no potential students can see their past shady practices.

Your bilboard analogy is beyond retarded. In your analogy you have done nothing wrong but are getting **** undeservedly. In this situation, the coaching thread one, you clearly have done something wrong (otherwise why would the "troll" posts not have been deleted from your past thread?) so you're getting **** for it.

ForumCop pm'd me a while back saying CR and him were looking into solutions for this situation. I see nothing has been done still, so in the coming days whenever I have the time/feel like it, I'm going to start a thread in NVG and see what other people think about 2p2's handling of this situation.

MMD · 07-09-2012, 02:58 PM

1. I asked you this earlier in the thread but you ignored it.

Is this your screename? http://www.pokertableratings.com/mer...earch/loljesus

You are not CTS or some other fantastic player who is so good that even in todays games without having played for 2 years or w/e their coaching would be among the best around.

You can't even beat 25nl yet you are accusing people of calling you a liar by saying you can't win. Your ptr above is the only evidence that has been put forward in support of that theory and your response was to post a graph of 600 hands where you won $1k lol. With your history I wouldn't be surprised if you stole the graph from somewhere else.

You provide absolutely no evidence that you are qualified to teach students how to play poker today. You keep murmuring away that you just need to focus on one particular thing. Well focus on proving everyone wrong then and play poker for a couple of weeks and post up some winning results. You won't because you can't imo. Anyone else in your situation would have done it two weeks ago when you first started getting ****. But you have been focussing on other stuff of course.

2. Just because you pay for a thread doesn't mean that you are untouchable. The trolls as you call them are not attacking anyone else are they? And most of the coaches on here are better than you. Why don't you ask yourself why you are a target right now instead of wallowing in self pity and crying about how the bad guys are out to get you for no good reason?

You lied about your results in the past.
Now you won't post your results because you don't have anything worthwhile to post.

You are a total joke and it's farcical that this has still not been addressed properly.

I'm with Jah on this. An NVG thread is the only way forward as you refuse to listen to the opinions of the "trolls" so what better way than to let the community, 99% of whom will never have heard of you or dealt with you in anyway, decide what the best solution here is?

I know what they will say, so do you and so does CR and Mat.

And fwiw you're not fooling anyone by saying thanks for the pms and now I'm fully booked etc. on the back of that other thread as anyone with half a brain would steer well clear of you after reading it. But you gotta keep up the facade right?

zachvac · 07-09-2012, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newschool2

I also make money, and I dont have to play, that sparks up jeleous feelings.

Some coaches don't like to play very much, they find poker boring to play but fun to teach.

Jesus anyone who hires someone to coach them at poker who thinks like this deserves what they get. You don't think loving the game (or at least somewhat enjoying it) is pretty important for someone to be able to understand the game well enough to teach it? Because I do.

vinivici9586 · 07-09-2012, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newschool2

1. Posting your recent results while is helpful, should be completely up to the coach. Some coaches don't like to play very much, they find poker boring to play but fun to teach. I personaly dont like to play more than 3 hours a day if at all, I have add and I lose focus and get bored with sitting in a chair. Of course most of you cynics are probably rite, I HAAAAVE to be a losing player in order to coach. NO other explanation of why I do it. Maybe I like to watch people learn? Maybe I am the only one who is actually helping the community between all of us. But naw, nm I'm a scumbag who takes advantage of people and lies about EVERYTHING.

i think this viewpoint is completely ridiculous, and the one thing, which above all proves that you should not have a coaching thread (not saying you're not qualified, but you shouldn't have a thread without clearly stated results). i've touched on this subject many many times, so i won't go into too much detail, but my opinion is based on a. the observation that whenever one of my elite/winning poker friends gets a coach that he or she is happy about, they share a corresponding graph of that coaches results b. the belief that a non-winning player can't teach someone to be a winning poker player and c. a history of scamming coaches like Jason Ho and very sketchy advertising from Tri Nguyen

you're also consistently being immature and sarcastic about your critics. there's not much difference between newschool and oldschool.

pontylad · 07-10-2012, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newschool2

If any of my students had something bad to say, I would listen, but that never happend. Go figure.

SWAG

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

Jesus anyone who hires someone to coach them at poker who thinks like this deserves what they get. You don't think loving the game (or at least somewhat enjoying it) is pretty important for someone to be able to understand the game well enough to teach it? Because I do.

but anyway....

Not a whole lot to add to what others have said/suggested. Your posts still indicate you have a very warped sense of understanding about the issue and the motives of others who disapprove of you creating a fresh new thread. Splitsuit was put under the same microscope and asked the same questions as you were, and by the same people. One thread was handled professionally and continues to generate it's owner business.

If you're going to have a coaching thread, then i think you have got to be prepared to answer difficult questions (whoever they may be from), and how you answer your critics is a good indicator to students about your legitimacy in general.